Imagine Telling the Devs To Scrap Another League, Again (Harvest ̶i̶s̶ was Amazing for Many Reasons)

Of course, it most likely was a majority/group decision to "reintroduce Harvest in the future" aka giving it the Synthesis treatment where it ends up not even recognizable of what it once was, but imagine telling the main dev team who worked on the artwork, programming, balancing, etc. to create Harvest "you know what, you know all that content, blood sweat and tears, balancing, artwork, content, etc. you worked on for 5-6 months that everyone enjoys and wants to stay? Yeah... we’re going to ‘reintroduce it in the future’ aka we can't be bothered to implement it with 3.12 and we will just hope that 3.12 is good enough even though people want Harvest now and not ‘in the future’." you really can’t make this up...

You would think that at least by now GGG would learn to not make content that people enjoy and have the hope that it will actually stay in the game and then decide to just get rid of it entirely or make it not even recognizable of what it once was, but no, let's just take it away without putting in the effort of balancing it in a way that it CAN stay. It almost feels like some cruel joke in a way. Imagine getting some cool league like Cut-Throat for example, that actually gives meaning to PVP, gone, completely. Synthesis, where you have more lore than imaginable and other great aspects, gone almost completely. It's just treated as rare side content instead and without the intricate tile system that players enjoyed doing for making their maps on the memory map/board as well as having a chance to craft good implicits on an item with the Synthesizer.

Harvest can't just be treated as some rare side content when it gets brought back. I don't think they even realize just how much they introduced into the game that was good with Harvest, not even including target crafting. We got a cool new side activity or creating our gardens, something that has been lacking from this game since hideouts are the only thing similar to this in terms of side activities that we can partake in.

We actually got some good difficulty Labyrinths for once that are lvl83 and one of which even allowed you to have a belt enchant in the end (Dedication to the Goddess) How can they rationalize/justify in their minds to just get rid of something like this? We got new game-defining currencies, like the Facetor's Lens for example, that allows us to actually transfer exp from one gem to another, this is so useful for Awakened gems. We got new infused engineers orbs that improve the quality of strongboxes more.

We got new infused Beachheads that gave more exp AND gave us a chance of getting new scrolls that would allow us to UPGRADE our Harbinger Uniques to the upgraded versions (Immortal Will with curse immunity, for example, my favorite). We got new winged scarabs, new "lures" that would allow us to have more bestiary beasts in maps, the uniques that are specific to the t4 boss drops, and I'm not even scratching the surface of how much there is to do with Harvest Crafting, not just from target removing mods from items, but just so much. And they want to just remove this completely? For what? Because it's too difficult to balance around? On one hand, I understand how it could impact long term gameplay if you get everything too easy, but it sounds more like a cop-out for balancing things around this great of a system that Harvest brought to the game. A crafting system that actually allowed us to deterministically craft for once and had players, and myself especially, hooked to play the league more than any league before.

I would be fine at this point if Harvest came back without the target crafting for gear/weapons and just kept all of the other non-harmful aspects and I'm sure others would too if it meant we got to keep the gardening activity or the Grove. Instead, people are just focused on the negative aspect of Harvest that made getting OP weapons too easy but they can still keep the non-harmful aspects of Harvest that I've listed above as well as crafts like changing your sockets, links, colors, etc. and all of the other fun content like making your garden, boss fights and Oshabi.

Not to mention, what about keeping the crafts that allow you to change colors, or sockets, or links. Allowing you to modify your maps with harvest crafting or even fracturing your maps is very fun, as well as synthesizing as well. I really loved being able to synthesize my gear again as I've missed being able to do so since Synthesis. Harvest legitimately feels like it DOES have a place in the game, not as just some rare side content, but something that should be in the game at least in some capacity as something you can engage in as regularly as Delve/Incursion, etc. Not just as some rare side content IF GGG were to balance it correctly before implementing it into the core game.

I was understanding of the decision to not make Harvest go core because of the harm it would do to the game's economy and burnout with the changing of mods on armor and weapons, but I thought at the least GGG would see value in making the garden itself go core and keeping the nonharmful crafts like changing your gear's color, sockets, links, infused beachheads that came with upgradable harbinger uniques, infused labyrinths that came with fun new difficult and belt enchants, infused currency like infused engineers orbs, facetor len's (amazing for transferring exp from one gem to another), new bestiary lures that allowed you to specifically target certain beast, winged scarabs, etc.

People might argue that the garden to them is something they don't like or don't want to do every league, but these were all complaints about previous league mechanics that people are not used to yet and then later once devs decided to get rid of them, people later on complained and it was brought back (bestiary for example, people at first said they did not like bestiary, but they brought it back, just without the nets, which was a good compromise at least).

The garden was literally so intuitive that if you actually took 2 seconds out of your day to read what each item does or understand the layout, you didn't even need a guide to make a good layout either. They could have made it even more intuitive than this but at that point, it would just be a gimmick and even then people would find something to complain about because it's not something that they enjoy so instead of giving constructive criticism they just scream for something to be removed from the game, while selfishly not caring about others who did enjoy this content and want it to stay.

If people are so against making the garden themselves, the best approach to fixing this that tons of others have proposed is being able to copy/paste other people's layouts for the garden, so that once you have enough lifeforce, you can just export/import someone's garden layout as you are able to do with hideouts. That way the people who actually don't like the garden for some reason are pleased and the people who do like the garden can still build it however they want.

Even all of this aside, I don't get how the devs can put out something fun and creative like the garden in the game, get people used to its mechanics and not see the value in making it core with 3.12, but then other leagues like Delirium, Metamorph, etc. get put core easily into the game, because it doesn't take as much effort to balance into the game and also because it fits the genre of an ARPG more. I was fine with this cutting of content from the game happening the first couple of times, but I don't want to feel this same thing anymore again, where at the end of a league, I'm just told all of this fun content I played will be gone or "introduced again in the future", which means most likely a very long time before it is brought back and who knows how much altered into what it was originally, which people fell in love with.

Surely, there is a way to balance this to where it does not impact the long-term enjoyment or burnout of the game and still keep all of the content from Harvest in the game, it just looks more like GGG got sidetracked with 3.12 and can't handle making the right balances in time, while also making 3.12 and also making PoE 2. But to be honest, Harvest I think is more of a priority to put into the game than they realize.

Harvest was the best league so far due to the other things, not just target crafting. The garden part could be reviewed for core content, but all the other improvements must stay forever.

What balancing you talking about? you mean that "NONEXISTENT"?

Everybody knew this league could not be added.
I wonder more, who makes these decisions in first place.
It was obvious it cant make it core as it looks.
People who grinded thousands and thousands of seeds will tell you that its broken.

We got info, that it is way too much for database or something.
Its RNG, RNG, RNG, RNG and then if your RNGs are good, you might hit the correct crafts/rerolls.

We still have so many bugs, that Wolcen now feels like game without bugs at all.
And all those bugs that were fixed, will be reintroduced in five weeks AGAIN. Like every league.
(Also glorified casino aint no crafting).

A good strategy might be to divide the 4 Seasons each year into a theme.

1 Season could be your typical Portal pops up during play and purple/gold/black monsters come out doing something. Doesn't require major plumbing changes in the game.

1 Season could be a flashback thing that serves as a greatest hits of past seasons. Doesn't require major plumbing changes in the game.

1 Season could be a Crafting type of thing. Doesn't require major plumbing changes in the game.

1 Season could be the Big Thing, with bold new crazy ass shit. Requires major plumbing changes in the game.

Save the foundational big thing for 1 League a year, and leave the Devs with time to build/test/balance it before release.

Save the Christmas League for a lightweight thing so it doesn't go to Shit during the Holidays.

Synthesis could have been its own mini-game or even a proper endgame alternative next to delve. Sad to see it disappear. Doesn't even need that much polish and changes.

Regarding harvest, we'll likely get a very watered down version which looks like current bestiary... And if so they may just as well never take any of it core.

[Removed by Support], but the crafting is the start of something potentially decent for the game. People don't want harvest, for good reasons.
If you took away the crafting aspect of harvest, are you left with anything worthy implementing into core game?

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frostzor27 wrote:

Harvest was the best league so far due to the other things, not just target crafting. The garden part could be reviewed for core content, but all the other improvements must stay forever.

The Garden won't come back the game engine/code do not really work well with it or it will take too many work for a side content. Same reason the synthetise puzzle didn't make it.

The amount of 'wastage' like this in any entertainment industry is considerable, and gets larger the more money that is involved, so its perfectly normal to write off significant amounts of work if it doesn't fit the perceived end purpose of the product. This is how risks are managed, rather than just churning out the same, safe product over and over without innovation.

I'm sure GGG know this and ran the league as an experiment, maybe so they get a better picture of targeted crafting for some future content where it can be introduced in a much more balanced way.

If you look at active playerbase you'll find the reason. Plenty of people found Harvest god-awful and quit within 4-7 weeks of trying to wrap their head around why it would be "ok" to crash the market early by introducing target crafting, essentially making all other crafting utterly useless.

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brushmonkey wrote:

The amount of 'wastage' like this in any entertainment industry is considerable, and gets larger the more money that is involved, so its perfectly normal to write off significant amounts of work if it doesn't fit the perceived end purpose of the product

I completely disagree with this. It doesn't make any sense for them to go against doing more side-activities or mini-games in their own game. This actually enhances the game in terms of the different amount of side activities/mini-games that people have the options of doing, meaning there is MORE with the game that you can engage in.

I know GGG has a vision of how the game has to be or work or are set in their old ways, but I really don't understand why you would fight against progress in their own game with something cool like this that they have created. The more they push back against new creative systems like this that actually enhance the game, the more GGG keep their game stagnant/static or without any progress in actually improving upon the crafting systems they currently have and just label the previous crafting systems before Harvest as "good enough" when it CAN be improved upon. I also understand that GGG also mentioned there are technical difficulties of making the content go core, but this sounds more like an excuse for not focusing their efforts or assets on actually making Harvest go core with enough balance because they either don't want to currently or are too focused on making 3.12 and PoE 2. I would personally be fine with PoE 2 being delayed if it meant we got to keep Harvest as core as soon as possible and I'm sure others would as well.

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MLGonthorian wrote:

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brushmonkey wrote:

The amount of 'wastage' like this in any entertainment industry is considerable, and gets larger the more money that is involved, so its perfectly normal to write off significant amounts of work if it doesn't fit the perceived end purpose of the product

I completely disagree with this. It doesn't make any sense for them to go against doing more side-activities or mini-games in their own game. This actually enhances the game in terms of the different amount of side activities/mini-games that people have the options of doing, meaning there is MORE with the game that you can engage in.

I know GGG has a vision of how the game has to be or work or are set in their old ways, but I really don't understand why you would fight against progress in their own game with something cool like this that they have created. The more they push back against new creative systems like this that actually enhance the game, the more GGG keep their game stagnant/static or without any progress in actually improving upon the crafting systems they currently have and just label the previous crafting systems before Harvest as "good enough" when it CAN be improved upon. I also understand that GGG also mentioned there are technical difficulties of making the content go core, but this sounds more like an excuse for not focusing their efforts or assets on actually making Harvest go core with enough balance because they either don't want to currently or are too focused on making 3.12 and PoE 2. I would personally be fine with PoE 2 being delayed if it meant we got to keep Harvest as core as soon as possible and I'm sure others would as well.

You may be right, maybe there is room for the garden mini game and maybe they want to find a way to implement it without the massive power gains it gives now, and maybe there is room for the crafting power but they want to find a way to integrate it into core gameplay rather than a side activity. But both of these changes take time and resource which will have to be scheduled around whatever it is they currently have going on. I guarantee they have a million improvements they would like to make and they only have the resources to pursue 10 of them, so most improvements will be on the 'to do later' list.

Harvest as it is was clearly a rush job and suffered from the quarantine working restrictions, and I would want them to take time to refine it rather than dropping it into the core game as the current mess. From a business perspective they have the choice of pissing off the people who really enjoy Harvest or those who hate it, and due to the massive power shift it would bring, the safe option would be to leave it out and rely on retaining the players who enjoy the core game.