Concentrated Effect Support's strange behaviour
" all POE programming and development are manual work and as you can see they had made this game It is not an argument - you can't know how many efort they do creating POE - nobody knows In addition it can be made automatically As a former programmer i can make a little software: should be realized virtual interaction between active skill and support gem and look at the reaction If active gem uses all properties of the support gen then green mark If active skill uses some properies then yellow mark If active skill don't touch any property of the suppoer gem then red mark Can be gathered all data about support gem and active skill gem interaction imitating POE work and do notation system automatically |
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Since you are a former programmer, and I too am a programmer, I would like to test your software's logic:
--- I have a completely naked ILvl 100 character. No jewels in slot, Kill All Bandits, no Pantheon power. No equipment except for a Tabula Rasa, which is a 6L Body Armour that give no bonus whatsoever. No Passive tree points except for those that only boosts attributes, in order to equip Skill Gems. *** I support Essence Drain, a skill that delivers a Chaos hit, then a Chaos Damage over Time with Void Manipulation, a support that gives More Chaos damage and trade it off with 25% Reduced elemental damage. Current Tooltip has a Green Thick, since it satisfy the support condition which is explicitally written on Void Manipulation, which is "Supports any skill that deals damage." When looking at Essence Drain tooltip, we can see both its hit and DoT multiplier has increased, by a value depending on Void Manipulation's level and quality. We can also see there is an addictional property, which is "25% reduced elemental damage". While it is explicitally exposed on the skill tooltip, it is nevertheless effective just as the More Chaos damage bonus. 1) No elemental damage is added to Essence Drain. What would your software say? Green or Yellow? *** I add now an Added Cold Damage support to the Essence Drain + Void Manipulation support. The result is an Essence Drain which hit deals Chaos and Cold damage, and has a Chaos DoT. The cold damage will however get the 25% elemental damage reduction from Void Manipulation, which since now has been "sleeping" 2) What would your software say now about Void Manipulation? Green or yellow? --- Last edited by Maxtrux#0762 on Jul 24, 2020, 8:17:54 AM
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" Youe explanation to the task is impossible to understand quickly since: 1. I don't know what is essence drain or i don't remember 2. I don't know what is void manipulation or i don't remember 3. Your explanation is too vast 4. I don't know english as good as you demand and could traslated only 75% Be more laconic pls PS If to answer to your post in general words i can say that the majority of combinations of support gems and active skills could be automated and it doesn't matter if some exclusions will be |
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English is not my first language too (I am just Italian, and I know some my english grammar is bad or sometimes does not make sense), also I do not "demand" any english knowledge - just game knowledge, and since you have many characters around 75-93 I guess you have a bit.
I believe I have used only game terms and something a Google Translate could help you understand better, and I believe I gave enough informations for helping you answer my specific questions. I apologize. I will try using other skill gems which I hope you are more familiar with. *** Main Skill: Herald of Thunder. Hits from Herald of Thunder have 0% Critical Chance Support Skill: Controlled Destruction. Gives More Spell Damage, but trade-off with 100% Reduced Critical Strike Chance. 1) What color on Controlled Destruction for Herald of Thunder? Green or Yellow? Support Skill 2: Increase Critical Strike: Adds critical strike chance, and base critical strike chance. This support can make attacks and spells with 0% base Critical Strike chance deal critical strikes 2) What color on Controlled Destruction for herald of Thunder + Increase Critical Strike? Green or Yellow? *** " True, of course. The majority of combinations could be automated. However, you cannot make a software that only covers "the majority" - you must cover every possible combination, every minority, otherwise an user will find those for you instead, like you did with Concentrated Effect and Ball of Lightning, and will start complaining. My explanation is "vast" because this argument you are proposing is, vast, and requires a vast discussion. As I usually say in my line of work, "it is not trivial". |
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I have pointed this out before, but this discussion belongs in a feedback / suggestions thread.
That aside, consider Path of Building's system of showing a green, yellow, or red check mark for applicable support gems and a green, yellow, or red plus sign for active gems that will affect the selected main skill. Generally it is supposed to show if something has a positive influence or not, but the fact is that it can neither predict synergies with other skills or support gems you add later nor is it always right even when applied to the main skill. 90% of my builds or more have me deliberately selecting at least one red marked skill or support because I understand the mechanics and I know that they will actually be beneficial, but it is extremely difficult to determine so programmatically, even more so if it is supposed to guide new players. If you ask for information like from the wiki (which clearly states that Ball Lightning does not deal area damage and thus does not benefit from Concentrated Effect) to be available ingame, I support your cause, but that much information cannot and should not be crammed into the small check marks that merely serve to inform you whether a support gem is applicable at all or not. Last edited by DER_PSYCHOPATH#2959 on Jul 24, 2020, 2:07:03 PM
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" That should probably just be red if a system is denoting anything beside whether on not the support can affect the skill at all, as HoT doesn't deal spell damage. "An it harm none, do what you will"
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" ...Actually, I've made quite an interesting point with that. Controlled Destruction's condition for applying is "Supports attack skills, or spell skills that deal damage.". And while apparently HoT's Lightnings are treated as Secondary damage, we can agree HoT is "a spell skill" that "deals damage". It should be eligible for the support. Should check it out in game ASAP, out of curiosity |
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" Thank you for your intellectual manner to talk!! "What color on Controlled Destruction for Herald of Thunder? Green or Yellow?" I understand your example and i say no, - in this case there is no any confusion understanding how it works so nany color mark are not needed Whereas i didn't understand interaction between CONC effect and ball lightning And as you can see we need to go to wiki to read the key phsaze that anyway concentrated effect-support-gem doesn't work with ball lightning IT WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE IT IS NOT OBVIOUS!!! SO IT NEEDS A COLOR MARK!!! "requires a vast discussion" yes, it is! "True, of course. The majority of combinations could be automated. However, you cannot make a software that only covers "the majority" - you must cover every possible combination, every minority" You are missing one subtlety: - you said (or somebody) that it is "great" or impossible work to manually illustrate all combinations between active skill and support gems BUT!!: GGG could make automation to majority of combinations and the minority should be finished manually. Since it is the minority then it implies (means) little amount of manual work. In addition!!! Pay specific attention to it!! if GGG faced with necessity to make designations (color notations) to all combination then they could programm a set of functions in POE-core to support automated system of designations for the FUTURE. If GGG aknowladged thet new notation system (designation system) is a necessity then they would program a set of functions (tools) to support automated system of designatons as a default-in-core ability of the POE-game engine and the problem will disappear Last edited by Staglaitor_#3917 on Jul 24, 2020, 5:56:10 PM
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" If GGG acknowledged the necessity to illustrate interaction between active skill gems and support gems in colour form or in other forms then they would begin to work for it. It does't matter how hard it is - if they will begin to solve this task then they reach the result - for example - through 3 years it's only a matter of time "should not be crammed into the small check marks" why not? GGG has to start somewhere. Every great discovery (invention) was begun from the first pancake Last edited by Staglaitor_#3917 on Jul 24, 2020, 6:14:09 PM
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" Because as I pointed out, a very similar system exists and does not work in Path of Building. The game is too complicated to categorise fundamentally different approaches to dealing damage (e.g. bleed, impale, poison, elemental damage) the same way. Most of the experienced players know almost every support gem and understand what active gems they can support and in what way. They do not need the check marks. On the other hand, a new player definitely does. And if that new player is overwhelmed with too much information of what a support gem does or does not do for his build and under what conditions and in what way, the system will not help them at all. Fundamentally, the tool in its current state is not intended to show you how to best improve your build. It is a help to learn what skills work together in general so that you can understand the skill descriptions and then eventually figure out how to build your character. If an order of preference was officially established that showed whether one support gem would be "better" than another, many people would not bother to learn why. Again, I want to emphasise that I believe that all the necessary information to make a build should be accessible ingame, but it should be in forms of explanation on demand, not in form of direct recommendations. Quite frankly, Ball Lightning might as well have a reminder text that specifically states that it does not deal area damage. |
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