Minion Builds Need a Nerf

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Universalis wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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Universalis wrote:

Op is a lie of incompetence, summoner needs a big budget to really melt content at high speed.

A random start budget summoner build that melts content at quite high speed already

It's not that fast, bowers, miners or others builds can do that too, and believe me when it's about content i'm talking about hightest T16s or Sirus.

Nobody has ever said that they could not .... it's quite amazing that after so that many posts in the thread, some people don't understand what it is about Oo.

It's about the fact that they do it correctly to very well, while being stupidly safe, very cheap, flexible, and on top of that among the best boss farmers in the game.

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Universalis wrote:

Your statement is a failure: summoners have no leech (lets not forget Baron build got killed) and low defence (no points for that), and today even NO SHIELD.

About ... everything you just wrote is literally wrong (apart from the fact that you need Baron to have significant leech on your summoner, which is nothing required to survive, especially as a summoner that has heaps of meat shields, and has the luxury to keep moving almost all the time).
Summoners need to invest the least in damage which makes them able to afford heavy specing into defenses, Baron builds never got killed, and there are other ways than Victario's charity to get charges on your minions (which are a very nice bonus, but not mandatory to begin with)

You cannot possibly have any experience with actually well built minion builds, there is absolutely no way given all the absurdities you just wrote, honestly.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

lets see.

Acid caverns has a boss that can wipe out 60k hp zombies
Delve needs progressively tankier minions the further down the rabbit hole you go.
1 or 2 specific legion mobs can do it


That is why they were buffed in the first place . because there exists things , rare as they may be, which are almost untankable.

And is that Acid cavern easily tankable for non summoners ?

Obviously not, the bloody thing destroys pretty much everything.
Was it a reason to buff summoners that did NOT need any buff to begin with ? They needed some QoL regarding the AI, and some nerfs to compensate it probably, if anything .... but certainly not stupid buffs.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

Before we had this buff to minion hit points we had constant threads about how minion builds were not shaper viable unless they used temp minions

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJih4ERc43U

This was way before all the big buffs, with budget gear.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

basic baronmancer, build of the past sports 45000 hp zombies. what do you need to have them killed? like seriously - how do you get them killed? i havent managed that yet. esp because you know, they kinda fight back

lets see.

Acid caverns has a boss that can wipe out 60k hp zombies
Delve needs progressively tankier minions the further down the rabbit hole you go.
1 or 2 specific legion mobs can do it


That is why they were buffed in the first place . because there exists things , rare as they may be, which are almost untankable.

Before we had this buff to minion hit points we had constant threads about how minion builds were not shaper viable unless they used temp minions. People would not use animate guardian because every single end game boss would burn through 3- 5 exalted in gear per guardian. Zombies were a meme.

It was terrible. belive me I have suffered through making zombie builds back when the highest hp they got was just a pathetic 10k . You know what those builds were? Not fun.

raise zombies need good investments (6l + empower 4lvl + 21glvl) in gem levels just not to die in red maps, we are not talking about big endgame. my 26lvl zombies with max resists were killed in juiced t16s many times with or even without delirium active. some mobs and map bosses hit like a truck so without bone offering zombies can surely die. not to mention this is with necromancer ascendancy. some players must be aware that zombies are literally unplayable in red maps if you use other ascendancies other than necromancer, even guardian. talking about a build diversity in the most "build diversed" arpg, lul.

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Tsokushin wrote:

It's interesting that none of these complaints about summoners being OP apply to the "summoners" that require active playing to maintain. Summon Raging Spirit, Dominating Blow, Dancing duo all seem immune to this type of criticism. Some of these builds run on the same general schemes of zombie/skele/spectre summoners, yet these are never complained about.

mostly beause these builds dont have what 'summoners' complained around here have - ability to not 'be there' at all

- SRS even with unleash (that costs you one link) require almost constant casting. increasing duration helps a little but it is still a very active playstyle. not to mention SRS AI is still.. weird
- Dominating Blow is amazingly fun but it is a melee build after all. strike melee, so you need investment for it to work at all and then further investment to make it something more than glorified auto attack. the biggest 'problem' is that any boss with phases screws you over as your minion buildup is very slow in 1:1 and for the most of the fight you are simply melee strike build
- Dancing Duo, havent played it but maybe for the same reason: the 'rampage' management sounds unfun. it might be strong, powerful etc but i do not want to bother with weapon swaps and all that jazz

- Herald of Purity is - again - mostly melee build, you stop attacking, you stop refreshing minions. you get the damage (my HoP deals ABSURD damage for the cost) but it is in essence melee build so the safety is not there (also it got HEAVILY nerfed with unique ring nerf). this:

+one node on the tree made 6-link HoP reseve like 6% mana.. pretty dumb if you ask me

- Herald of Agony is still strong but again - you HAVE to be active to maintain stacks. you cannot run for 20 seconds (Aul fight) and have your full firepower the moment you stop to attack. it is still VERY cheap bossing setup and passable clear but - again - you stop attacking, you have no damage. you keep attacking, you can get hit and killed.

Oh boy i would love to buy new 5-6EX worth of new gear for my AG everytime he gets nuked by Sirus...because you know, Summoners are so cheap. (right now i dont even want to try sirus because he eats minion builds like candy)

I have multiple summoners and all struggle to get over 6k life without invest heavily into defensives.
One thing that is kinda busted is the redeemer aura you can get on a body armour "nearby enemies are blinded" but that's it. Your minions can die in the void that is offscreen because time and defensives do not matter there.
Zombies and spectres are far from unkillable, they die alot to stupid stuff that would kill the thiccest jugg too.

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Fruz wrote:

About ... everything you just wrote is literally wrong (apart from the fact that you need Baron to have significant leech on your summoner, which is nothing required to survive, especially as a summoner that has heaps of meat shields, and has the luxury to keep moving almost all the time).
Summoners need to invest the least in damage which makes them able to afford heavy specing into defenses, Baron builds never got killed, and there are other ways than Victario's charity to get charges on your minions (which are a very nice bonus, but not mandatory to begin with)

Honestly YOU have no idea of the shit you are talking about, you dont have 40/40 in all leagues, you have no idea of the global balance. Meat shield is not a real protection, in many cases you get hit with AOE damage, and sometimes it's specific minions that will target you regardeless of meat shield. Even pierce projectiles.

The main point of the topic is: does minion build need a nerf; and my answer is that all others builds with 50 ex budget destroying high content then need to get nerfed too.

ONLY 12% OF PLAYERS HAVE MINDLESS AGRESSION AS ASCENDANCY SKILL.

There's more Assassins than witch summoners combined.

Summoner is OP? Dunno. Spent about 13ex on gear and still that is not enough to kill Sirus AL5.

This game is ridicuosly bad with RNG to nurf builds.

baron always required stacking STR on a summoner and for a league or two it didnt stop it from being the top played build because it was just that strong

Shaper's Touch + Sanctuary + Soul Tether and some decent (but easily sub 100c) items == 5k life, 4k ES and you leech to them both via zombies, very effectively. it is seriously difficult to die with that setup

and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel (i have one that gives me like 20% STR + 60 STR in templar socket)

you really are trying to downplay something that is not downplay-able. check poe.ninja, there are plenty of Baron builds and i doubt they got to 100 by farming T4 maps VERY SLOWLY

not to mention that i happen to get 6 Monty zombies, not 2. where did that '2' come from?

btw - sirus is a STUPID fight because of storms. if your minion die there it is due to storms. lazor, die beam, even meteor - they should survive that. try any other fight (Acid Caverns.. the chaos totems? these are bearable if you stack chaos res on minions, otherwise it is deadly to all life..)

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sidtherat wrote:

and that is with pre-powercreep gear, without %STR on an amulet, without clusters (Wall of muscle: 8% life, 5% STR), without Timeless jewel (i have one that gives me like 20% STR + 60 STR in templar socket)

Thats hardly budget gear though.

Budget would be baron helmet plus some random gear pieces. And that combo clears like shit.


Stick to your point

Bitching on Baron build today means you have no idea about poe gameplay for real men in 2020:

Baron is not that op anymore, and even the clear speed could be a subject of discussion... To be THAT OP with Baron you may need awakened gems and crafted mace or bow, which is going in the line of "everything is OP with 50+ ex"

Thus 4% of players or less are playing it. Personally i stopped it because of clearspeed which is not that great in comparison with: Redemption sentries - that one is the real deal especially because of LOLING freezes - 100 ex.

peace

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Fruz wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJih4ERc43U

This was way before all the big buffs, with budget gear.

This build is using a post heavily buffed montreguls grasp which was part of one of the earlier attempts from ggg to make minions (zombies specifically) end game viable.

which went from 2000 added life and 100% added damage to 5000 added life and 100% more damage.

I do not need to tell you how massive a change this buff was.


An item that was deliberately boosted so that zombies could atleast try end game content.

It was the very definition of a bandaid fix.

further more this video is after the 3.0 buff to zombies which increased their dps by 45%


And the 2.6 buff too their aoe slam

And the buff to all minions which normalized their resistances


I dont know about you but .. if i got a buff which added an extra 6 - 8000 hp to zombies while also having those same zombies do close to 200%+ MORE damage I would say that is a big buff

Please remember the shaper was 2.4, not 3.0 nor 3.2