Lets Talk Necromancers.

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VolcanoElixir wrote:

I found it, and as you probably expected I completely misremembered and misquoted it (so my apologies for that), but here is basically how I knew minions would not be touched before the balance notes came out: r/pathofexile/comments/e6qoj3/highlights_from_the_most_recent_dropped_frames/

They actually mention general support rather than just gearing alone, unless I'm thinking of another source I can't find. They also don't want to nerf minions because they consider it an important archetype that should be able to do endgame content.

Thanks for the sauce. I quickly glanced over the footnotes in the thread and currently watching the video provided in it.

I'm still worried about the footnotes. It should be noted that this podcast came out about a week prior to the league coming out. Sure GGG doesn't wish to remove/nerf enablers for summoners since they're considered a core archetype, but enablers aren't the same as the archetype itself. Summoners are very popular this league, moreso than they were in Blight on account of the mob buffs and Metamorphs. They might not nerf or remove enablers (whatever those may be), but there's no way they're not going to take a look at summoners as a whole. :P

I created this thread for the sake of showing my opinion of the spec. Yes, they're powerful, and I will most likely play them regardless of the nerfs they receive. The issue at hand is that they need nerfs, but not the nerfs that GGG will probably do.

I posted several things suggesting changes to them, such as more accesses towards mods and weapons that directly impact necromancer performance early on. This would allow necromancers to begin investment from early stages.

I also believe that they should nerf abilities that clearly are getting too much value on simple four links, while not really investing into minion damage, such as HoAG and Holy Relic. These two skills are clearly heavy outliers in the current meta.

As for other changes, I'm not saying I hate the quality of life changes, I love them entirely. However, there are some things that should not have happened, or things that should have. Such as the reduction to the mana cost of Raise Zombies, would be a massive QoL, especially with GGG designing them to be less tanky without tanky investments.

I don't care to cry on the forums about who's the better at building necromancers, saying necromancers are the best because they're the most popular and say that they deserve nerfs. I'm simply trying to provide feedback and warranted solutions, and keep it constructive.

I think outright nerfing necromancer because they're the top played class, without knowing exactly why they're strong is a bad move. This is the point of the thread, not to argue with each other.

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007Bistromath wrote:

I would need to see a source of them saying they've been wanting to nerf summoners in this way.

If this is true, I'm not sure how it would be difficult. I'm not gonna go out and say changing the stats of things is easy, but wouldn't the approach be to knock down the stats of minions and then compensating by buffing minion mods on gear to accomplish the goal you described? I'm failing to see how much of the game would need to change in order to accommodate them.

And I'm not gonna lie, making summoners more gear dependent would suck. One of the things that attracted me to summoners was the fact they weren't tied down so much by gear constraints. I don't make a lot of currency in this game and summoners are one of the few, if not the only, builds that can get off the ground without spending 2+ exalts which is trivial for most people here yet means a lot to me.

I'm completely unsurprised, yet thoroughly dismayed. Given that most of the vocal playerbase are clear speed obsessed metafiends who hate necro for being able to do all the stuff they can but slower, of course they would get it into their heads that the way to fix necro is to inflict the brain damage that infests the rest of the game on us. No fun allowed. You have to wait for the RNG to drop Godot before you can play your real build.

If it actually goes this way, I'm probably done with this whole genre. I don't want to go back to D2 again, I'm still mad at Blizzard.[/quote]

Try Grim Dawn. It is actually alot of fun. I bounce back between poe and grim dawn on a regular basis.

I looked at a video of that recently and was mainly disappointed that it's not a 40k ARPG, which should obviously exist.

All I know is after so much time I finally gave up on this patch and created a necro. And after that I cant even log on another char. Minions/necro style is far stronger than anything its rly another lvl. U can stack a lot of defense and even the minions act as defense for u. All u need to do is dodge mechanics.

BUT. I dont think that nerfing it will solve the issue, infact it will only result on more players leaving the game. Cause many people are playing necro cause everything else feels shit in comparison. Too much investment and gear and u will still die and feel like shit thinking that 30ex worth nothing and all ur time went wasted.

The real problem is how they are trying to make this game artificially hard by randon spike damage that will kill u by surprise. Dieying by a 1 shot or 0.1 sec burst damage is not fun on any lvl being early or endgame. This gameplay of one shot everything before they can one shot u needs to go away. That's the real problem and cause of that a lot of people is playing necros.

Ps. Look at the clips of deaths like gamerforlife etc. ALL deaths u cant barely see what a hell happened. Its surprise mf ur dead. THis isn't "hard" its stupid. On streams u can see they one shot everything and fall sleep and then boom out of nowhere ur dead. This is the real problem people should have "cry" to the devs and not nerf this, buff that. Nerfing and buffing will not solve anything by this point. They need to completely rework the game (I doubt they will do)

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IHellBoundI wrote:

All I know is after so much time I finally gave up on this patch and created a necro. And after that I cant even log on another char. Minions/necro style is far stronger than anything its rly another lvl. U can stack a lot of defense and even the minions act as defense for u. All u need to do is dodge mechanics.

BUT. I dont think that nerfing it will solve the issue, infact it will only result on more players leaving the game. Cause many people are playing necro cause everything else feels shit in comparison. Too much investment and gear and u will still die and feel like shit thinking that 30ex worth nothing and all ur time went wasted.

The real problem is how they are trying to make this game artificially hard by randon spike damage that will kill u by surprise. Dieying by a 1 shot or 0.1 sec burst damage is not fun on any lvl being early or endgame. This gameplay of one shot everything before they can one shot u needs to go away. That's the real problem and cause of that a lot of people is playing necros.

Ps. Look at the clips of deaths like gamerforlife etc. ALL deaths u cant barely see what a hell happened. Its surprise mf ur dead. THis isn't "hard" its stupid. On streams u can see they one shot everything and fall sleep and then boom out of nowhere ur dead. This is the real problem people should have "cry" to the devs and not nerf this, buff that. Nerfing and buffing will not solve anything by this point. They need to completely rework the game (I doubt they will do)

This really is the actual issue. The artificial difficulty added with the bosses ultimately made everyone flock to a build that's easy to pick up. My feedback to the game devs is either buff every other class, nerf all the content across the board, and/or tweak how necromancers scale by making it more gear based, accessible and earlier to obtain, with scaling properties on convoking wands to make ilvl important just as a melee or bow character would be. This would put necro on an even playing field of other classes, giving the passive playstyle being something people, like myself, want to play, not because they feel forced to play it.

I almost quit very early in the league for the same reason you posted. It felt like everything else was just terrible because of the difficulty. Everything else feels much worse to play, even bow builds, which are my second favorite in the game, felt awful because bossing on them is just infinitely worse.

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The_Impeacher wrote:

Single player, solo game. Let folks have fun. :)

Some players have fun (briefly) in a game without challenge...
More have fun (for a long time) in a game with challenge...

My final character last league was a (ridiculously overpowered) necro. It was (kind of) fun as it let me play content I'd never tried.
My second character this league is a (now just overpowered) necro of the same type. I chose that due to morphs (which are stupidly beyond 'challenge')...

Yup! They need a nerf... but given how so many other character build types have become completely unusable due to the mob buffs this league, that need to be toned back as well.

Balancing a game with so many different paths for character building is HARD! It need to be managed through character capability nerfs though, not buffing mobs. Otherwise you'll just face power creep... and the problems that come with it.

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Cyzax wrote:

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The_Impeacher wrote:

Single player, solo game. Let folks have fun. :)

Some players have fun (briefly) in a game without challenge...
More have fun (for a long time) in a game with challenge...

My final character last league was a (ridiculously overpowered) necro. It was (kind of) fun as it let me play content I'd never tried.
My second character this league is a (now just overpowered) necro of the same type. I chose that due to morphs (which are stupidly beyond 'challenge')...

Yup! They need a nerf... but given how so many other character build types have become completely unusable due to the mob buffs this league, that need to be toned back as well.

Balancing a game with so many different paths for character building is HARD! It need to be managed through character capability nerfs though, not buffing mobs. Otherwise you'll just face power creep... and the problems that come with it.

Problem right now is that alot of build (bow/melee) are very gear dependant to be successfull. I think the goal in 2.0 by removing the socket and link from gear is to reduce that stress and reduce the difference btw those builds.

Necromancers are not OP. They are fairly slow but have the persistence to compensate for it. In past leagues it was not in great demand - there were a lot of options. But now clear speed meta is crippled by massive HP boosts, and class that can reliably bulldoze content becomes actually good in comparison. The problem is that everyone else is effectively crippled by overpowering monsters and especially bosses. Insane damage spikes were always a big issue with the game, but now they took a new level of insanity being extremely common, and on top of that massive HP boost means that most classes can't reliably kill everything before it kills them. Necromancers are not the problems, they are the symptom.

I agree. I think minions are quite good. I dislike the issue that people are simply running CWC setups with very little minion investments and are getting full benefits out of minions. That I don't like.

If you want to play minions it should require solid investment just as any other kind of build, not a four link and do all content.

I hope GGG comes to understand that Necromancers are in a good place, just they scale too quickly early on, making them more desirable, not OP.