"
430714 wrote:
If every mechanic in the game would be capable of the same outcome at the end of the game everything would be by far better.
"
vio wrote:
would be easily achievable by capping a player's overall damage output and scaling monster life against that cap.
??
This is how any proper game is made of in the first place... They set the top barrier and build everything downwards from that... So there is understandable system in everything - damage, levels, growth of the character etc.. The scaling is proper, what we have now is just mix of BS that barely works...
POE is different it seems, they just build everything towards the infinite... That`s where shit starts to roll - we have 2 players same level nearly same gear, but the damage output ant be different in 2-3 times or even more... And we can also have 2 players different gear, different characters, who have damage output difference in 10 times or even greater...
Now both of them have the same level so they can do the same content...
One of them one shots everything, the other struggles more and more at the higher level content..
How is this balance working... Just great with one shooting bosses and invulnerable bosses...
As I mentioned in one of my posts, the whole unneeded complexity comes from this very same problem that there is no roof... In every mechanic of the game...
Consider how much of the strain it adds to your PC..
They simply dont understand that you dont need to do 10kk DPS to feel strong in the game...
|
Posted by430714#0558on Jan 1, 2020, 2:34:15 PM
|
"
430714 wrote:
"
430714 wrote:
If every mechanic in the game would be capable of the same outcome at the end of the game everything would be by far better.
"
vio wrote:
would be easily achievable by capping a player's overall damage output and scaling monster life against that cap.
??
This is how any proper game is made of in the first place... They set the top barrier and build everything downwards from that... So there is understandable system in everything - damage, levels, growth of the character etc.. The scaling is proper, what we have now is just mix of BS that barely works...
POE is different it seems, they just build everything towards the infinite... That`s where shit starts to roll - we have 2 players same level nearly same gear, but the damage output ant be different in 2-3 times or even more... And we can also have 2 players different gear, different characters, who have damage output difference in 10 times or even greater...
Now both of them have the same level so they can do the same content...
One of them one shots everything, the other struggles more and more at the higher level content..
How is this balance working... Just great with one shooting bosses and invulnerable bosses...
As I mentioned in one of my posts, the whole unneeded complexity comes from this very same problem that there is no roof... In every mechanic of the game...
Consider how much of the strain it adds to your PC..
They simply dont understand that you dont need to do 10kk DPS to feel strong in the game...
The problem with what you're saying is that what you are describing is Diablo 3, a game where no choices you made mattered. The entire concept of build diversity relies on the existence of good and bad builds; if you don't have the ability to make mistakes, your choices don't have any weight.
The thing about POE that makes it special is the ridiculous level of depth present in charater building. What you call "unneeded complexity" many people would call "the only reason I play this game."
|
|
|
while ouright capping the damage output is not the best idea, there is a similar tech called "diminishing returns" which kindof works the same way except it's not a hard cap.
at a certain level of damage output the amount of investment into damage doesn't result in a linear increase in monsters health reduction.
poe decided that it's a good idea to let players instakill bosses by players who only invested into damage.
it's beyound me why they have these complicated damage calculations with evasion, dodge, armor, and block and have these calculations apply only in one direction?
why do only some monsters have "evasive behaviour". why can't izaro simply block the tenthousand mines placed before his feet to insta kill him?
the reason pvp failed is that in the rest of the game everything insta died and players couldn't be bothered to engage in a fight that required more than holding down one key with some kiting from time to time to avoid telegraphed attacks.
wh do we only have so few monsters that reflect damage? (atziri double, izaro lieutnant, collonade boss, Marceus the Defaced)
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
|
Posted byvio#1992on Jan 1, 2020, 2:55:06 PMAlpha Member
|
|
Wouldn't diminishing returns disincentivize people to min-max and therefore spend more time farming for the perfect gear? If after some point the damage goes way lower than it is on paper and in practice the results are barely any different I know I wouldn't bother chasing upgrades and will leave a league much faster.
|
Posted byJohny_Snow#4778on Jan 1, 2020, 3:29:11 PM
|
"
ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:
The problem with what you're saying is that what you are describing is Diablo 3, a game where no choices you made mattered. The entire concept of build diversity relies on the existence of good and bad builds; if you don't have the ability to make mistakes, your choices don't have any weight.
The thing about POE that makes it special is the ridiculous level of depth present in charater building. What you call "unneeded complexity" many people would call "the only reason I play this game."
Sounds like Diablo 3 is the only thing you know and since POE cant be Diablo 3 it just cant... Out of any objective facts....
Lol, no choice you made mattered? and that`s because? My presented concept does not have anything to do with it, because the choices can be introduced in different ways... + one aspect that we should mention is POE currently offer 2 choices: build particular build that works, or build everything else that doesnt ... these are 2 choices.. And if you consider this somewhat genuine I dont have to discus with you anymore... The choices given by the game should not be the choices to perish, every choice given should introduce different possibilities to grow towards the same goal, not cutting your path after you invest X currency/time in it... This is not how things should work, in fact what this shows is the poor balance of the game between characters, builds, items/ mechanics etc...
In short its not that Dioblo 3 does not deliver diversity because it doesnt introduce drawback with your choices, it provides different ways to approach the goal... THIS IS CALLED BALANCE.
POE on the other hand does not even have proper class selection, you can build whatever you want with whatever class you want, which means that there is no balance between anything and the whole range/melee/magic approach in this game is nothing more than different animations on the pretty same mechanics...
It gives you the feel of depth, but reality is that it is overcomplicated ~10 builds game... Everything else is dead ends, that you only find out about after you invest your time in it...
Indeed it is the true "Path of Exile", because you are pretty much Exiled from your real life with this approach where you need to spend so much time just to make a simple move that would not lower your future possibilities...
"
vio wrote:
while ouright capping the damage output is not the best idea, there is a similar tech called "diminishing returns" which kindof works the same way except it's not a hard cap.
at a certain level of damage output the amount of investment into damage doesn't result in a linear increase in monsters health reduction.
poe decided that it's a good idea to let players instakill bosses by players who only invested into damage.
it's beyound me why they have these complicated damage calculations with evasion, dodge, armor, and block and have these calculations apply only in one direction?
why do only some monsters have "evasive behaviour". why can't izaro simply block the tenthousand mines placed before his feet to insta kill him?
the reason pvp failed is that in the rest of the game everything insta died and players couldn't be bothered to engage in a fight that required more than holding down one key with some kiting from time to time to avoid telegraphed attacks.
wh do we only have so few monsters that reflect damage? (atziri double, izaro lieutnant, collonade boss, Marceus the Defaced)
Welp I am not much in to developing, but the very same gameplay we have now, could be achieved with far less complexity and mechanics involved...
I would really like to get back to the role concept actually, because it is RPG so there has to be roles. but there issint actually... There is only one thing that exclude roles in POE and that is skills/weapons range... The main difference between casters/melee/range is pretty much the range of attack (and animation of the skills..). Everything else has little meaning... This is especially visible in the endgame where everyone melts everything the same way.. The only visible RPG elements are up to Ascendancy, after that it is pretty much "melting time with any class"
When you see 10 different players with completely different equipment and you cant really tell what their builds are... This is not RPG, this is just salad mixed in the bowl...
|
Posted by430714#0558on Jan 1, 2020, 3:38:21 PM
|
"
430714 wrote:
"
ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:
The problem with what you're saying is that what you are describing is Diablo 3, a game where no choices you made mattered. The entire concept of build diversity relies on the existence of good and bad builds; if you don't have the ability to make mistakes, your choices don't have any weight.
The thing about POE that makes it special is the ridiculous level of depth present in charater building. What you call "unneeded complexity" many people would call "the only reason I play this game."
Sounds like Diablo 3 is the only thing you know and since POE cant be Diablo 3 it just cant... Out of any objective facts....
Lol, no choice you made mattered? and that`s because? My presented concept does not have anything to do with it, because the choices can be introduced in different ways... + one aspect that we should mention is POE currently offer 2 choices: build particular build that works, or build everything else that doesnt ... these are 2 choices.. And if you consider this somewhat genuine I dont have to discus with you anymore... The choices given by the game should not be the choices to perish, every choice given should introduce different possibilities to grow towards the same goal, not cutting your path after you invest X currency/time in it... This is not how things should work, in fact what this shows is the poor balance of the game between characters, builds, items/ mechanics etc...
In short its not that Dioblo 3 does not deliver diversity because it doesnt introduce drawback with your choices, it provides different ways to approach the goal... THIS IS CALLED BALANCE.
POE on the other hand does not even have proper class selection, you can build whatever you want with whatever class you want, which means that there is no balance between anything and the whole range/melee/magic approach in this game is nothing more than different animations on the pretty same mechanics...
It gives you the feel of depth, but reality is that it is overcomplicated ~10 builds game... Everything else is dead ends, that you only find out about after you invest your time in it...
Indeed it is the true "Path of Exile", because you are pretty much Exiled from your real life with this approach where you need to spend so much time just to make a simple move that would not lower your future possibilities...
"
vio wrote:
while ouright capping the damage output is not the best idea, there is a similar tech called "diminishing returns" which kindof works the same way except it's not a hard cap.
at a certain level of damage output the amount of investment into damage doesn't result in a linear increase in monsters health reduction.
poe decided that it's a good idea to let players instakill bosses by players who only invested into damage.
it's beyound me why they have these complicated damage calculations with evasion, dodge, armor, and block and have these calculations apply only in one direction?
why do only some monsters have "evasive behaviour". why can't izaro simply block the tenthousand mines placed before his feet to insta kill him?
the reason pvp failed is that in the rest of the game everything insta died and players couldn't be bothered to engage in a fight that required more than holding down one key with some kiting from time to time to avoid telegraphed attacks.
wh do we only have so few monsters that reflect damage? (atziri double, izaro lieutnant, collonade boss, Marceus the Defaced)
Welp I am not much in to developing, but the very same gameplay we have now, could be achieved with far less complexity and mechanics involved...
I would really like to get back to the role concept actually, because it is RPG so there has to be roles. but there issint actually... There is only one thing that exclude roles in POE and that is skills/weapons range... The main difference between casters/melee/range is pretty much the range of attack (and animation of the skills..). Everything else has little meaning... This is especially visible in the endgame where everyone melts everything the same way.. The only visible RPG elements are up to Ascendancy, after that it is pretty much "melting time with any class"
When you see 10 different players with completely different equipment and you cant really tell what their builds are... This is not RPG, this is just salad mixed in the bowl...
On point... It wasn't like this in the past. In my opinion it started in 2.0 +- and after that slowly degrade each patch till now.
They simply run out of ideas and kept adding things for the sake of adding and building hype for the future (like exilecon) so people keep buying stuff.
No rpg elements, no scale, no choices (only the ilusion between trash builds and a few good ones), boring story after act 4 that even today they didnt added proper dialogs and abysmal bad endgame that achieved the lower standard now in 3.9.
On the technical side too, it got SO MUCH worse. After the miracle of the desync fix they should have keep that quality and SLOWLY adding things and testing them but they pushed the engine to the limit and now we cant even party without a complete slowdown or even instance crash. Jesus even the mtx cause an insane amount of lag for no reason lol
|
Posted byIHellBoundI#4693on Jan 1, 2020, 3:53:13 PM
|
"
IHellBoundI wrote:
On point... It wasn't like this in the past. In my opinion it started in 2.0 +- and after that slowly degrade each patch till now.
They simply run out of ideas and kept adding things for the sake of adding and building hype for the future (like exilecon) so people keep buying stuff.
No rpg elements, no scale, no choices (only the ilusion between trash builds and a few good ones), boring story after act 4 that even today they didnt added proper dialogs and abysmal bad endgame that achieved the lower standard now in 3.9.
On the technical side too, it got SO MUCH worse. After the miracle of the desync fix they should have keep that quality and SLOWLY adding things and testing them but they pushed the engine to the limit and now we cant even party without a complete slowdown or even instance crash. Jesus even the mtx cause an insane amount of lag for no reason lol
in software it's called "technical debt", you keep adding stuff cause the customer wants it quick but it bloats your code and makes it not maintainable in the long run.
it's a proven, valid and cost effective stragegy to work this way if you plan to throw away your software and redo the whole thing at some point.
poe2 anyone? and who plays poe then?
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
|
Posted byvio#1992on Jan 1, 2020, 3:59:28 PMAlpha Member
|
"
vio wrote:
"
IHellBoundI wrote:
On point... It wasn't like this in the past. In my opinion it started in 2.0 +- and after that slowly degrade each patch till now.
They simply run out of ideas and kept adding things for the sake of adding and building hype for the future (like exilecon) so people keep buying stuff.
No rpg elements, no scale, no choices (only the ilusion between trash builds and a few good ones), boring story after act 4 that even today they didnt added proper dialogs and abysmal bad endgame that achieved the lower standard now in 3.9.
On the technical side too, it got SO MUCH worse. After the miracle of the desync fix they should have keep that quality and SLOWLY adding things and testing them but they pushed the engine to the limit and now we cant even party without a complete slowdown or even instance crash. Jesus even the mtx cause an insane amount of lag for no reason lol
in software it's called "technical debt", you keep adding stuff cause the customer wants it quick but it bloats your code and makes it not maintainable in the long run.
it's a proven, valid and cost effective stragegy to work this way if you plan to throw away your software and redo the whole thing at some point.
poe2 anyone? and who plays poe then?
K. Nicely put. Make sense and probably is the best for them (they did earned a lot of money so clearly it worked well) but still sad from a customer point of view. Less quantity and more quality is not a thing many people seems to give credit these days.
|
Posted byIHellBoundI#4693on Jan 1, 2020, 4:06:32 PM
|
"
430714 wrote:
"
ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:
The problem with what you're saying is that what you are describing is Diablo 3, a game where no choices you made mattered. The entire concept of build diversity relies on the existence of good and bad builds; if you don't have the ability to make mistakes, your choices don't have any weight.
The thing about POE that makes it special is the ridiculous level of depth present in charater building. What you call "unneeded complexity" many people would call "the only reason I play this game."
Sounds like Diablo 3 is the only thing you know and since POE cant be Diablo 3 it just cant... Out of any objective facts....
Lol, no choice you made mattered? and that`s because? My presented concept does not have anything to do with it, because the choices can be introduced in different ways... + one aspect that we should mention is POE currently offer 2 choices: build particular build that works, or build everything else that doesnt ... these are 2 choices.. And if you consider this somewhat genuine I dont have to discus with you anymore... The choices given by the game should not be the choices to perish, every choice given should introduce different possibilities to grow towards the same goal, not cutting your path after you invest X currency/time in it... This is not how things should work, in fact what this shows is the poor balance of the game between characters, builds, items/ mechanics etc...
In short its not that Dioblo 3 does not deliver diversity because it doesnt introduce drawback with your choices, it provides different ways to approach the goal... THIS IS CALLED BALANCE.
POE on the other hand does not even have proper class selection, you can build whatever you want with whatever class you want, which means that there is no balance between anything and the whole range/melee/magic approach in this game is nothing more than different animations on the pretty same mechanics...
It gives you the feel of depth, but reality is that it is overcomplicated ~10 builds game... Everything else is dead ends, that you only find out about after you invest your time in it...
Indeed it is the true "Path of Exile", because you are pretty much Exiled from your real life with this approach where you need to spend so much time just to make a simple move that would not lower your future possibilities...
"
vio wrote:
while ouright capping the damage output is not the best idea, there is a similar tech called "diminishing returns" which kindof works the same way except it's not a hard cap.
at a certain level of damage output the amount of investment into damage doesn't result in a linear increase in monsters health reduction.
poe decided that it's a good idea to let players instakill bosses by players who only invested into damage.
it's beyound me why they have these complicated damage calculations with evasion, dodge, armor, and block and have these calculations apply only in one direction?
why do only some monsters have "evasive behaviour". why can't izaro simply block the tenthousand mines placed before his feet to insta kill him?
the reason pvp failed is that in the rest of the game everything insta died and players couldn't be bothered to engage in a fight that required more than holding down one key with some kiting from time to time to avoid telegraphed attacks.
wh do we only have so few monsters that reflect damage? (atziri double, izaro lieutnant, collonade boss, Marceus the Defaced)
Welp I am not much in to developing, but the very same gameplay we have now, could be achieved with far less complexity and mechanics involved...
I would really like to get back to the role concept actually, because it is RPG so there has to be roles. but there issint actually... There is only one thing that exclude roles in POE and that is skills/weapons range... The main difference between casters/melee/range is pretty much the range of attack (and animation of the skills..). Everything else has little meaning... This is especially visible in the endgame where everyone melts everything the same way.. The only visible RPG elements are up to Ascendancy, after that it is pretty much "melting time with any class"
When you see 10 different players with completely different equipment and you cant really tell what their builds are... This is not RPG, this is just salad mixed in the bowl...
I have no idea what you're even trying to say for most of this. Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and learn how to use an ellipsis properly.
From the things you are saying that I was able to translate, it sounds like you're still very new to POE because there's a LOT of factual inaccuracies here (Marceus DOES NOT reflect damage, he uses Tempest Shield; there is a HUGE difference between casters and attackers and it's the entire accuracy mechanic; not being able to tell the difference between different builds; etc). Welcome to the game, and we're glad you're here. I'm confused, though: why would you want a game to be so simplistic that someone who is quite clearly still learning the basics of the basics has little more to learn? I would never keep playing a game so simple that I had everything figured out in my first week... that's just a boring, easy game.
And speaking of Diablo 3: when I said that no player choices mattered... I mean, what don't you understand about this? You don't allocate stat or skill points in any meaningful semi-permanent way, so every single level 80 barbarian is exactly the same except for their gear. And the gear itself is so dumbed down because it reduces all meaningful decisions to "Get as much of my one base stat as possible" to make your generic, all-purpose DPS number go up. There is literally no character building going on here, because without consequences all decisions are meaningless.
Last edited by ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605 on Jan 2, 2020, 7:09:58 AM
|
|
|
because you referenced my text, marceus in marketplace used to cast lightning thorns on his shield which reflected damage.
at least he used to.
been wrong, it's just tempest shield that casts on hit, looked like thorns to me as visual effects were slightly similar
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill! Last edited by vio#1992 on Jan 2, 2020, 9:06:21 AM
|
Posted byvio#1992on Jan 2, 2020, 7:31:08 AMAlpha Member
|
