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Deathfairy wrote:
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IHellBoundI wrote:
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grepman wrote:
any time theres the opposite of power creep, ie stronger content and no huge increases in player power, the lower builds will get squeezed, yes. why are you presenting it as a bad thing tho ?
players got so powerful pre 3.9, they literally could throw shit on the wall and still end up well into red maps and possible kill some of the endgame bosses. at the point, differentiation of builds is basically how to dress up a barbie a different way.
you are choosing between high heels, timberlands and dress shoes to stomp out ants. your choice literally doesn't matter because its still ants.
but when content is an angry grizzly bear, yeah you won't be able to wear high heels unless you want to get booty blasted.
lets say there are 20000 builds total in PoE (random number out of my ass)
would you prefer there to be 20000 viable builds and ant-like content
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10000 builds but bear-like content?
I know which one Im choosing any day, every day; besides, what is even the point if any build can do anything ?
You are missing the point... What u are saying is about build cost x power and sure there need be a higher cost to be able to stomp content (not 1 ex or less necros are doing atm....). When we talk about diversity is being able to build up a char (investing heavily on it) using any archetype (melee, bow, spell, minions etc) AND diferent skills like melee cyclone, cleave, dual strike, double strike. So on a perfect balanced game u could choose a class and skills and farm/build up and invest till the point it will be able to clean content. Ofcorse if u build more defense = less clear speed/damage, more ofense = more clear speed/deaths/danger/player skill.
Rn there is no such freedom cause u will invest 40 or more exalteds to do the same content and die a lot than another skill/archetype that spent 1 exalted. So obviously u will feel bad and stop playing or will join the meta club to be able to enjoy the game.
Ive always avoided meta builds. Only played cyclone cause Im a fan of d2 barbarian since ever and all my chars are melee bailarinas (even though I agreed cyclone is broken atm). This league I gave up and created for the first time some summoners and god they are strong... Im breezing on hardcore the game became a true easy mode cause I can devote all to defense and still do MORE damage and be tankier than my starforge kaom's cyclone slayer.
And no, nerfing/gutting necro is not the solution. Make it on par with the other archetypes and balance out the few multipliers that are broken that allow some builds to do 10m dps. After that they can tweak monsters and bosses and making them harder if needed.
Pretty sure you are the one missing the point, not the guy you qouted.
Oh yeah? Why? I did explain my point of view. Can u do the same? If not its just trolling.
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Posted byIHellBoundI#4693on Dec 28, 2019, 3:39:59 PM
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IHellBoundI wrote:
Oh yeah? Why? I did explain my point of view. Can u do the same? If not its just trolling.
You really didn't.
Your first paragraph doesn't actually have any points at all. You talk about some hypothetical perfectly balanced game. That about the same as talking about perfect world while at it.
Second paragraph you just taking random thing out of your let's say pocket. Some hypothetical 40 ex build that dies more then some other hypothetical 1 ex build. At any point of the game I can make 10000 ex build that would be worse then 1 ex build, make better freaking builds bro.
In third paragraph you actually give examples but they are wrong and clearly exagurated like your breathing through content with whooping 7 challenges.
And you in last paragraph you talk about some magical Multipliers. Which by the way are usedacross 100s of build each and would affect them all different and make some build not viable, which I guess you can by fixing more Multipliers which then... You get the idea.
I am trashing content on a Non meta build. Right now build is quite expensive, but that wasn't the case when I got to t16 on life version.
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Posted byDeathfairy#1490on Dec 28, 2019, 4:29:41 PM
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Deathfairy wrote:
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IHellBoundI wrote:
Oh yeah? Why? I did explain my point of view. Can u do the same? If not its just trolling.
You really didn't.
Your first paragraph doesn't actually have any points at all. You talk about some hypothetical perfectly balanced game. That about the same as talking about perfect world while at it.
Second paragraph you just taking random thing out of your let's say pocket. Some hypothetical 40 ex build that dies more then some other hypothetical 1 ex build. At any point of the game I can make 10000 ex build that would be worse then 1 ex build, make better freaking builds bro.
In third paragraph you actually give examples but they are wrong and clearly exagurated like your breathing through content with whooping 7 challenges.
And you in last paragraph you talk about some magical Multipliers. Which by the way are usedacross 100s of build each and would affect them all different and make some build not viable, which I guess you can by fixing more Multipliers which then... You get the idea.
I am trashing content on a Non meta build. Right now build is quite expensive, but that wasn't the case when I got to t16 on life version.
I dont play hamster league... Only created a char on meta cause some friends insisted. I play hardcore only and a bit of testing on sc. And yes with my self gathered necro (trade on hc is almost none so its almost a self found league....) Im doing better and safely than my others chars with 10x more invested gear. I only used this exemple to ilustrate how the disparaty between archetypes are bad rn. About hyphotetical perfect world... give me a break. 4 years ago there was some broken builds but at least u could build up a lot of diferent chars and do content. Even on looking on foruns there was a lot of build guides for diferent skill that worked well so is not that "Impossible" to achieve this perfect world...
Just google skelon necro and see the "expensive" equips the people are using it and how fast they farm/kill stuff.
But fair enough, at least u gave a proper awnser I respect that.
Edit: I see u dont play on hc so the perception of the game state can be very diferent. No wrong or right just diferent
Last edited by IHellBoundI#4693 on Dec 28, 2019, 4:46:51 PM
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Posted byIHellBoundI#4693on Dec 28, 2019, 4:44:09 PM
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You clearly don't see much, while I don't play hc I do play hc ssf almost every league now.
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Posted byDeathfairy#1490on Dec 28, 2019, 6:54:15 PM
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IHellBoundI wrote:
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Actkqk wrote:
The diversity of builds is always relative in the eyes of who plays. I see hundreds of possibilities where others only see 4 or 5. Where I see hundreds of possibilities others can see many more. The problem of the people who complain about the "lack of diversity" is that they want to be able to kill the maximum bosses in the maximum of difficulty with almost anything that comes to mind and it is very good (excellent) that it is not so. Almost any build with almost any equipment can complete act 10. Many builds can clean white maps without problems. The amount of builds that can clean yellow maps without problem is quite minor. And the number of builds that can walk through red maps without inconvenience is reduced. And if you want red maps with crazy modifiers, the builds capable of cleaning them will be very few.
And that is precisely what helps diversity and creativity. And that's how it should be.
What I mean is that it is excellent that the final content, the most difficult, is not suitable for any build.
So... Spending 10x more on a build to NOT be able to kill the endgame boss than another build who can do it with any equips even on 4 or 5 links is good design???? LOL.
So fun to waste currency just to do some white maps. Balance and diversity is yes to be able to do all content with all or at least most of the skills on a similar cost (10ex, 20ex, 10c I dont care, let the devs estipulate this)
What's the point of having a lot of "possibilities" if u wont do 50% of the game using it... ?
That's right, that's just diversity even if it's hard for you to accept it. Diversity is about having a multitude of variants and one of the variants implies that there are more economical and more expensive builds. Builds that can do a lot having little and builds that need to invest in them to achieve the same results or even worse than cheaper builds... PoE is the ARPG with the largest possible number of builds I've seen and many of them are good until the yellow maps at medium difficulty. The only other ARPG with a lot of diversity in builds is Grim Dawn, and it doesn't even have half the possible builds that PoE has. Discovering what are viable builds is part of the experience of learning to play PoE. If I want to kill final bosses and be part of "the elite" it can be done. If I want to slow down slowly enjoying the game, I can do it. If I want to have a build without spending anything, I can do it. If I want to have a new build, it's just a matter of thinking and it can be done. If I want to be a sheep of the flock and make the build that is fashionable, I can do it ... What more diversity do you want?
You are claiming for diversity of builds in the game which is perhaps the game with the most diversity of builds in the world... Good.
Bethesda is known for having good ideas and terrible realization of them. GGG is a Bethesda subsidiary or what?
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Posted byActkqk#4579on Dec 28, 2019, 7:04:27 PM
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IHellBoundI wrote:
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grepman wrote:
any time theres the opposite of power creep, ie stronger content and no huge increases in player power, the lower builds will get squeezed, yes. why are you presenting it as a bad thing tho ?
players got so powerful pre 3.9, they literally could throw shit on the wall and still end up well into red maps and possible kill some of the endgame bosses. at the point, differentiation of builds is basically how to dress up a barbie a different way.
you are choosing between high heels, timberlands and dress shoes to stomp out ants. your choice literally doesn't matter because its still ants.
but when content is an angry grizzly bear, yeah you won't be able to wear high heels unless you want to get booty blasted.
lets say there are 20000 builds total in PoE (random number out of my ass)
would you prefer there to be 20000 viable builds and ant-like content
OR
10000 builds but bear-like content?
I know which one Im choosing any day, every day; besides, what is even the point if any build can do anything ?
You are missing the point... What u are saying is about build cost x power and sure there need be a higher cost to be able to stomp content (not 1 ex or less necros are doing atm....).
I didn't say a single word about cost of a build. and you say I missed the point ? lol
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When we talk about diversity is being able to build up a char (investing heavily on it) using any archetype (melee, bow, spell, minions etc) AND diferent skills like melee cyclone, cleave, dual strike, double strike. So on a perfect balanced game u could choose a class and skills and farm/build up and invest till the point it will be able to clean content. Ofcorse if u build more defense = less clear speed/damage, more ofense = more clear speed/deaths/danger/player skill.
this is exactly what I talked about. poe isn't a perfectly balanced game because theorycrafting min max will yield an exponentially more powerful character than one who just threw shit on the wall.
the problem is, when you cater to the character who threw shit on the wall, all content becomes trivial.
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Rn there is no such freedom cause u will invest 40 or more exalteds to do the same content and die a lot than another skill/archetype that spent 1 exalted. So obviously u will feel bad and stop playing or will join the meta club to be able to enjoy the game.
some builds are better than others. thats how it is, and that's how it will be. I dont get why the content difficulty has to cater to lowest common denominator here.
sorry bud. you are the one who missed the point here. in poe, inevitably if content gets harder and player doesn't become more powerful, some builds on the low end will not be able to do content. and thats fine. going back to my example, you can't fight a grizzly bear on high heels. does that limit your build, yes, but thats how it goes
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Posted bygrepman#2451on Dec 28, 2019, 7:44:49 PM
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In the end it comes down to points of view. Some people think that the difficulty should be set by the lowest denominator and no agrguments will ever change their views, full inclusion and no shit build left behind. Let's hope ggg will never have these views.
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Posted byDeathfairy#1490on Dec 28, 2019, 9:50:22 PM
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Most player can't affort 50 EX build.
We still need league starter build capable of doing red map with low investment.
We still need end-game SSF build
We still need end-game ~5EX build for the majority of players.
If you are good at POE and know how to make a lot of currency good for you, you can play everything you like ... but do not prevent average player to have fun and do all the content just because your build need 20 EX to do the same thing that a 1EX build. You can also play the 1EX build, they can't play the 20EX.
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Posted byDeonbekende#4380on Dec 28, 2019, 10:54:00 PM
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There are high EX cost builds that truely excel at what they do, and then there are high EX builds that are bad builds, but because you throw so much OP gear at them they can actually clear content.
On the low end, you actually need a combination of good builds and/or good player skill to make them work.
GGG doesnt limit build diversity. at all.
GGG also doesnt bend over backwards to enable bad builds. You need to do that yourself by throwing a shitload of currency at it, or just offset the bad build with exceptional skill (which is usually an intentional thing to prove a point, usually as a tuber).
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Posted byAsmosis#7365on Dec 29, 2019, 12:39:46 AM
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Deonbekende wrote:
Most player can't affort 50 EX build.
We still need league starter build capable of doing red map with low investment.
We still need end-game SSF build
We still need end-game ~5EX build for the majority of players.
If you are good at POE and know how to make a lot of currency good for you, you can play everything you like ... but do not prevent average player to have fun and do all the content just because your build need 20 EX to do the same thing that a 1EX build. You can also play the 1EX build, they can't play the 20EX.
This is key difference of views. You dont need, nor should there be 5 ex build for doing all content. I am not sure why you feel there has to be. 5ex is really not alot and is more then possible even 3-4 hours per week. For some reason you feel that if you cant kill everything on t16 game has no meaning.
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Posted byDeathfairy#1490on Dec 29, 2019, 11:46:12 AM
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