Why does GGG hate melee and love spells?

nevermind

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SaiyanZ wrote:

In the bolded bits, seems you are talking about movement skills with cooldowns which we have. Leap Slam, Whirling Blades, Dash.

Those skills need to be similar to a teleport, hence why I mentioned Flicker Strike specifically. It's the only one of the movement-skills which allows you to bypass a volley of projectiles which more often then not will be fired at you.
In narrow corridors this can easily lead to death, and with legion we saw what can happen there easily even with overcapped res for the specific damage types when some auras overlap.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

The sidestep/quick disengage idea sounds nice but it won't be that useful or work well in practice. Bosses usually do the big hits in an area and not knowing exactly where you are going to end up after using the skill is problematic. It probably will also feel/look like desync.

True, it's a wonky idea, the general notion there is to have a 'oh shit' button which gets you out of range for most attacks which can actually pose a danger. Hence not targeted.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Regarding extra twitch defenses, Steelskin and Molten Shell have been buffed/added recently which gives some extra instant protection. Maybe they aren't good enough though what would be something that can be implemented without being abused?

They are flat amounts though, basically a simple barrier. What melee needs is an option to gain defenses superior to any ranged class immediately for a short duration. Basically just to avoid being one-shot by very strong attacks and to make up for the downside of being enforced point-blank range. Obviously such a defensive method is only allowed to be used in conjunction with skills that force you to go in actual melee-range.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

The stun/knockout idea would work although I wouldn't called stunning one mob crowd control. You can already achieve this effect with a 4L stun focused Heavy Strike.

Yes, which needs 4 sockets, what I mean is an auxiliary gem, as most of those I mentioned. Extra functionality without much use beyond that to take up little space and still allow proper defensive measures.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

"In order to make melee feel better, the rest of the game needs to feel worse"

It's not about making something feel worse or better. In this case it's simply about reducing the disparity between them. I already wrote the same in another thread. After someone said melee and ranged feel fairly the same in terms of clearing content I went along and picked 3 different characters: My Ed/Contagion which received no investment directly after uber-elder, solely meant for T2 glacier in Legion. My pure-phys cyclone with a 6L Starforge and some other fairly decent equip. And my utterly broken WO-char which has only received a generic res-ring after loosing the ability to use marks.

The outcome was... not overly surprising. ED/Contagion was around 5% faster then Cyclone, WO (a totally broken one) 5% slower then Cyclone. That's from a build which is supposed to work in comparison to 2 'pleb' builds which aren't meant to run T16 guardian maps.

And that's one of the best melee-skills as well, well... at least something GGG calls 'melee' which has nothing to do with actual point blank strike skills, those are in a quite worse place.

It's just about core balance, bringing both types of skill in line with each other. Nerfing rangers and casters is just more viable since the game has become too fast overall rather then buffing melee to the level of those. It has to be done one way or the other... though since melee needs to react the direction is a bit more obvious for that.

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Furaijin wrote:

What bothers me most about the whole thing is that this is the state of melee AFTER the so called melee buffs were done so I'm really hoping GGG isn't in a mindset right now were they believe melee is just fine.
I probably missed a few things that aren't great about melee right now so to my fellow melee players, please add whatever has been bothering you because I'd love for GGG to be more aware of what's going on.

This is the part that is screwing ggg and where all these people commenting on so called fixes are causing more problems than they are solving.

When ggg change something melee, they are usually just putting a temporary bandaid on the problem. It will inevitably continue to be a problem as long as the core issues of clear speed aren't addressed.

And let's be honest, the bandaids being applied are really not getting the job done themselves. The best build to use in the "melee patch" was ed+contagion. That should tell you something about their approach.

I've said it a million times and I'll keep saying it until they get it: melee will ALWAYS be second or third tier as long as melee isn't clearing maps as fast as ts or old vaal spark or ed, etc. And that's just never going to happen with the existing melee splash. Melee needs to become "ranged" to compete, there's no way around it.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Spoiler

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Furaijin wrote:

What bothers me most about the whole thing is that this is the state of melee AFTER the so called melee buffs were done so I'm really hoping GGG isn't in a mindset right now were they believe melee is just fine.
I probably missed a few things that aren't great about melee right now so to my fellow melee players, please add whatever has been bothering you because I'd love for GGG to be more aware of what's going on.

This is the part that is screwing ggg and where all these people commenting on so called fixes are causing more problems than they are solving.

When ggg change something melee, they are usually just putting a temporary bandaid on the problem. It will inevitably continue to be a problem as long as the core issues of clear speed aren't addressed.

And let's be honest, the bandaids being applied are really not getting the job done themselves. The best build to use in the "melee patch" was ed+contagion. That should tell you something about their approach.

I've said it a million times and I'll keep saying it until they get it: melee will ALWAYS be second or third tier as long as melee isn't clearing maps as fast as ts or old vaal spark or ed, etc. And that's just never going to happen with the existing melee splash. Melee needs to become "ranged" to compete, there's no way around it.

Wrong.

Real melee needs to compete by having a damn niche, so just envision having boss fights actually finishing faster/easier on a melee char by at least half the time any AoE/projectile focused char would. That would grant melee it's niche, and wouldn't necessarily place it on par with range on clear speed, but it would more than make it relevant at bossing - we get at most 3 bosses in a arena, so you can actually kite them, employ tactics, etc.

They need to stop with the band aids, and start resolving the real problems MELEE has - like simply the existence of Cyclone, FLicker Strike, Consecrated Path as damaging skills that also move you to the damn enemy or the need for a working targeting system - as we all know they should have done this a long, long time ago...

They are so incompetent they can't even address off screening and we still hope they will "improve melee"???

Please, let's be real...

I feel like this is a bit relevant here:
https://youtu.be/HZqxIteqKaQ?t=6246

Also,

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sofocle10000 wrote:

They need to stop with the band aids, and start resolving the real problems MELEE has - like simply the existence of Cyclone, FLicker Strike, Consecrated Path as damaging skills that also move you to the damn enemy...

Wrong.

Mobility skills could be another area of exploration to allow melee to keep up with ranged clear speed if bossing isn't a niche they can reasonably fit melee into. If melee has higher mobility and lower aoe, it still will come out quite nicely. Besides that, mobility skills are generally a lot more fun than stationary ones, so I'd disagree with this statement on principle if nothing else.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Spoiler

I feel like this is a bit relevant here:
https://youtu.be/HZqxIteqKaQ?t=6246

Also,

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

They need to stop with the band aids, and start resolving the real problems MELEE has - like simply the existence of Cyclone, FLicker Strike, Consecrated Path as damaging skills that also move you to the damn enemy...

Wrong.

Mobility skills could be another area of exploration to allow melee to keep up with ranged clear speed if bossing isn't a niche they can reasonably fit melee into. If melee has higher mobility and lower aoe, it still will come out quite nicely. Besides that, mobility skills are generally a lot more fun than stationary ones, so I'd disagree with this statement on principle if nothing else.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough (might have missed a relevant "only"), we actually need more focus on such skills, and namelocking ones need to behave like the current move & kill skills.

We need to hit & move "seamlessly" as melee with the namelock skills, not standing around like a rock as soon as the target dies...

And melee movement skills would benefit from a further "recovery" reduction if you have hit an enemy recently...

So what I was saying is that we need more mobility as melee, because we need to be always on the move, yet even if we don't get to the same clear speed as a ranged build, by having a different more active playstyle, we would still be properly enticed to use melee as an alternative to large AoE/projectiles...

So, everyone realizes that we can now roll eclipse staves with over 300% increased damage on them for elemental spells, right?

Because that's totally a thing we can do now.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

They need to stop with the band aids, and start resolving the real problems MELEE has - like simply the existence of Cyclone, FLicker Strike, Consecrated Path as damaging skills that also move you to the damn enemy or the need for a working targeting system - as we all know they should have done this a long, long time ago...

They are so incompetent they can't even address off screening and we still hope they will "improve melee"???

Please, let's be real...

I see that you also are still waiting on GGG to address melee's targeting problem with a real solution instead of putting a bandaid on it and calling it fixed.

Multistrike was the first bandaid
Ancestral Call was the second bandaid


I can't wait for the third bandaid.

It is funny how no other ARPG have the melee targeting problem but this game somehow has it. Something like that should have been fixed in Alpha or in Closed Beta. Shame...oh well more time to practice throwing those rags.


Also they ain't never going to address off screening. They can't even make a enemy mechanic that actually challenges ranged combat (well there is proxy shield and...well that other one...proxy shield plus? yeah that sounds about right).

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bionicg2040 wrote:

It is funny how no other ARPG have the melee targeting problem but this game somehow has it.

The first Diablo had it, back in 1997. But it was a game where nothing respawned so it was feasible to click on each monster to finish the game, multiple times actually as you couldn't even hold a button, it was a mouse killer.

I as a melee player think melee is in good state now. The problem is all the rest shit that is overpowered beyond imagination.

I defeated UElder in SSF for the first time this league and it was exactly the fight end-game fight in ARPG should be.

What the end-game fight in ARPG should not be is 5 sec of autocasting shit all over the screen.

In fact all other playstyles should be brought down to melee, so they would also struggle on end-game content, that's why it's called end-game. But powercreep slaves would whine the fuck out of dev's brain if they would have done it, and ggg don't want it themselves, they're adding more powercreep every league, so..