Why does GGG hate melee and love spells?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

Also Heavy Strike deals 222% of base damage and has a 20% chance do deal double damage, not sure how much more damage you think it needs to be an amazing single target ability. So many people are complaining about all these melee skills being bad at clearing when that isn't their purpose. They were all made for single target for taking out rare/unique enemies. Sure since with trading people end up with insane damage now and don't need single target skills, but still doesn't mean these abilities need to be buffed to be so strong they clear just as good as the the ones meant to do that. Hopefully since we will get more 6 links in PoE 2 people will just accept that these skills aren't for clearing and actually use them for their initial purpose.

Just compare Heavy strike with Ice Crash for example. 222% of base with 0,85 attack rate and 20% chance for double damage against 240% of base with 0,7 attack rate and 169-254 added cold damage. I am not even sure Heavy strike comes out on top of that, even with threshold jewels. And even if it does, it will only be slight. Not to mention that Ice Crash has an inherent AOE and it doesn't knock shit back. I mean just try clobbering a Einhar Rarebeast with shaper levels of health using heavy strike. That permanent knockback is such a massive pain, you spend more time running after the beast than actually attacking. And yes, I actually used heavy strike at some point following your train of thought and it felt horribly doing that.

I really love playing melee and I've been defending its viability in like 5 topics during the last few weeks, but even I have to say that some of those Strikeskills are entirely pointless and Heavystrike is arguably the worst of them all thanks to knockback. That skill simply doesn't have a purpose to fulfill aside maybe from being bad/be used early for leveling, but even there it's not good.

Would you like to see 6.5 million Shaper dps Heavy Strike boss killer that can clear like a champ on 10ex budget?? Knock-back shmock-back. Doesn't matter when you hit like a truck.

like a champ..

sure, crit staff berserker (you can throw in abyssus for even more dakka)

and what you get? slow, not-so-tanky, no range, pom-pom build from the past

it has all the issues your Glacial Hammer has: it is a slow clearing, average damage build that is not tanky enough to have showcase videos with non empty XP bar. aka: weak. or, to be more polite, good in its own right

but in current game such builds are garbage. you have Elemental Hit build (lvl 97)

name me 3 things your glacial hammer or heavy strike does better than said elemental hit character. just 3. (note that 'feeling better' doesnt really count)

oh and knockback on HS is abhorrent mechanic that has no place in this game

There will always be people who dont get to see the whole picutre. Thorstein being one of them sadly.

Anyways i was about to start a Two Hand Melee Build with some Fortify Effect i guess i will just take a break now for 3.9 after i saw this dev manifesto.

One of the hugest disconnects from devs with playerbase i have seen with what have been done to melee.

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raics wrote:

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Do people even know what they want?

Of course we do, short version:

- Native advantages at short range, either in dps or survivability when compared to a ranged build that just happened to stand close to the enemy. Yes, native mechanics, not something you were forced to pursue and pay for either in currency or build real estate.
- Mob density and eHP that will make those advantages meaningful.
- A modern targeting system that works without crutches.

That's the bare minimum where I'll consider shutting up on the issue.

How would you imagine native advantages being implemented? Each character starts off bare and can be anything so it can't be linked to the character. So these things you want for melee would need to be on the skill tree or on skill gems.

What sort of implementation of advantages would satisfy you? You can say what you want but without an idea of how it can be implemented in the game it's useless.

If you think about it, there are already things like fortify and easier access to block/life on the tree for melee on the bottom and bottom left of the tree.

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

Also Heavy Strike deals 222% of base damage and has a 20% chance do deal double damage, not sure how much more damage you think it needs to be an amazing single target ability. So many people are complaining about all these melee skills being bad at clearing when that isn't their purpose. They were all made for single target for taking out rare/unique enemies. Sure since with trading people end up with insane damage now and don't need single target skills, but still doesn't mean these abilities need to be buffed to be so strong they clear just as good as the the ones meant to do that. Hopefully since we will get more 6 links in PoE 2 people will just accept that these skills aren't for clearing and actually use them for their initial purpose.

Just compare Heavy strike with Ice Crash for example. 222% of base with 0,85 attack rate and 20% chance for double damage against 240% of base with 0,7 attack rate and 169-254 added cold damage. I am not even sure Heavy strike comes out on top of that, even with threshold jewels. And even if it does, it will only be slight. Not to mention that Ice Crash has an inherent AOE and it doesn't knock shit back. I mean just try clobbering a Einhar Rarebeast with shaper levels of health using heavy strike. That permanent knockback is such a massive pain, you spend more time running after the beast than actually attacking. And yes, I actually used heavy strike at some point following your train of thought and it felt horribly doing that.

I really love playing melee and I've been defending its viability in like 5 topics during the last few weeks, but even I have to say that some of those Strikeskills are entirely pointless and Heavystrike is arguably the worst of them all thanks to knockback. That skill simply doesn't have a purpose to fulfill aside maybe from being bad/be used early for leveling, but even there it's not good.

Would you like to see 6.5 million Shaper dps Heavy Strike boss killer that can clear like a champ on 10ex budget?? Knock-back shmock-back. Doesn't matter when you hit like a truck.

With good enough gear you can make any skill work, that's a given. Still with similar investment pretty much every other melee skill is going to get you better results. And unlike heavy strike those other melee skills are also reasonably playable at lower gear levels.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

How would you imagine native advantages being implemented? Each character starts off bare and can be anything so it can't be linked to the character. So these things you want for melee would need to be on the skill tree or on skill gems.

What sort of implementation of advantages would satisfy you? You can say what you want but without an idea of how it can be implemented in the game it's useless.

If you think about it, there are already things like fortify and easier access to block/life on the tree for melee on the bottom and bottom left of the tree.

Wouldn't ask if I didn't think they're capable of doing it, but if they're out of ideas and need help all they need to do is make me an offer :)
Hell, I've seen modders do more extensive changes than those and we aren't talking about a bunch of modders here, it's team of (by now) experienced developers with full knowledge and access to game resources. Aren't you underestimating them a bit?

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raics wrote:

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SaiyanZ wrote:

How would you imagine native advantages being implemented? Each character starts off bare and can be anything so it can't be linked to the character. So these things you want for melee would need to be on the skill tree or on skill gems.

What sort of implementation of advantages would satisfy you? You can say what you want but without an idea of how it can be implemented in the game it's useless.

If you think about it, there are already things like fortify and easier access to block/life on the tree for melee on the bottom and bottom left of the tree.

Wouldn't ask if I didn't think they're capable of doing it, but if they're out of ideas and need help all they need to do is make me an offer :)
Hell, I've seen modders do more extensive changes than those and we aren't talking about a bunch of modders here, it's team of (by now) experienced developers with full knowledge and access to game resources. Aren't you underestimating them a bit?

That just goes back to what I first said. People don't really know what they want regarding melee. They have an idea but have no clue of how it can be implemented in the game. So when something new gets added it's never enough and the melee complaints will always be around.

eg. Fortify and Impale are melee specific and their boosts are in the melee region of the tree. These things were developed and new/improved at some point and they fit into your "want" criteria, however you are obviously not satisfied.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

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raics wrote:

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SaiyanZ wrote:

How would you imagine native advantages being implemented? Each character starts off bare and can be anything so it can't be linked to the character. So these things you want for melee would need to be on the skill tree or on skill gems.

What sort of implementation of advantages would satisfy you? You can say what you want but without an idea of how it can be implemented in the game it's useless.

If you think about it, there are already things like fortify and easier access to block/life on the tree for melee on the bottom and bottom left of the tree.

Wouldn't ask if I didn't think they're capable of doing it, but if they're out of ideas and need help all they need to do is make me an offer :)
Hell, I've seen modders do more extensive changes than those and we aren't talking about a bunch of modders here, it's team of (by now) experienced developers with full knowledge and access to game resources. Aren't you underestimating them a bit?

That just goes back to what I first said. People don't really know what they want regarding melee. They have an idea but have no clue of how it can be implemented in the game. So when something new gets added it's never enough and the melee complaints will always be around.

eg. Fortify and Impale are melee specific and their boosts are in the melee region of the tree. These things were developed and new/improved at some point and they fit into your "want" criteria, however you are obviously not satisfied.

Problem is they aren't melee only. He'd probably be much happier if they had a "only works with meleeskills" tag on them. As long as that's not the case you will always get the argument that a ranged skill can use them just as well even if it makes no sense what so ever from a practical point of view i.e ranged casters using Fortify Shield Charge.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

That just goes back to what I first said. People don't really know what they want regarding melee. They have an idea but have no clue of how it can be implemented in the game. So when something new gets added it's never enough and the melee complaints will always be around.

As I said, speak for yourself, fairly sure a number of people here understand game design enough to pull something on that scale off, and if we could do it, they could too. The question is only if it would be worth their time, you'd have to dig pretty deep because of how the game gradually ended up and some things are fairly established at this point. Poe2 would be a good time to do it, sure, the question is only if they think it would be worth the time, probably not.

But, as I said in that removed post, that doesn't mean we should stop asking. If you ask for the impossible there's a high chance you will get something that is possible, in this context it's something they aren't keen on doing rather than actually impossible, but you get the point.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

eg. Fortify and Impale are melee specific and their boosts are in the melee region of the tree. These things were developed and new/improved at some point and they fit into your "want" criteria, however you are obviously not satisfied.

fortify you get from shield chargin around is not melee specific. pretty much each and every non archer uses such setup for a reason and with no downsides. you can mock it, you can downplay it. but it is here and it works. it might be clunky but.. you know what? melee is clunky. having to shield charge once per few seconds is nothing in comparison

if you mean the 'fortify effect' clusters.. cool. i guess. both these clusters are in bad spots that you have to pay for with bad pathing. high opportunity cost, these passives might have been used for other defensive mechanics to even things out. not to mention the 120% effect bench craft.


impale is phys specific, not melee specific. phys bows/wands AND MINIONS can benefit from it with no-to-medium cost (archers get it without any extra costs, minions.. well, they are so damn dumb that they dont really mind investing some passives for travel). i have an impale full phys wander and tornado shot impale slayer. both are tanky and dish out bonkers damage.

so what were that melee specific things you mention?


how many melee builds have you played recently? i do not mean CwC/CoC cyclone, but melee - when you have to scale its damage properly without following 'the one build that works'. your character list doesnt show me many melee chars but plenty of ranged/casters. maybe you simply have no idea just how weak in comparison melee is?