Failing a Blight Encounter/Map feels so much worse then just failing a Legion/Abyss/Breach

Did today 2 t3 blighted, failed both. How? I don't know or i think i know.

Pretty much steamrolling the mobs but at some point there is a clusterfuck on the screen from all the shit going on so i'm not even looking what im doing im just watching mini map. From out of nowhere portals prob spawn near the pump and bye bye 2 maps. I see no other way how i lost 2 maps just today. Lost few more from next to the pump portals.
It's just frustrating...

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Teigo wrote:

- Incursion/Abyss (okay fail it is bad but chances are good you get at least something done like killing one architect or a bunch of mobs before the abyss runs dry)

Abyss is exactly like blight, you don't get the rewards at the end if you don't complete it.

Blight encounters still do give you xp and the loot that drops from the monsters you killed, exactly like abysses.


Having some extra rewards at the end isn't necessarily bad, it pushes you to go to the end of the encounter, it simply gives an extra incentive to finish it.
Balancing the rewards at the end and that come from already killed monsters is what matters.

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Teigo wrote:

Those are really common too. So failure should not be punishing but mainly feel a bit bad and encouring a player to do it better next time.

Because you say so does not mean that they "should" be like this or that, you are not providing any actual reason.

Those small events' failure hardly matter because you have another one in the next map, you get another change to try right after.
This is much, much worse for uncommon ones, because you don't get the next chance right after, it's the complete other way around here.



That said, the proposition that gives some rewards per wave isn't all that bad, it would not make sense with the current blight chest though, it would need to be done properly, like chests that pop under the pump rather than from the roots ?

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Teigo wrote:

The nerfed (yet understandable so) Version now feels so sad compared.

This is one of the reason was legion was not good for the game/GGG.

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Fruz wrote:

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Teigo wrote:

- Incursion/Abyss (okay fail it is bad but chances are good you get at least something done like killing one architect or a bunch of mobs before the abyss runs dry)

Abyss is exactly like blight, you don't get the rewards at the end if you don't complete it.

Blight encounters still do give you xp and the loot that drops from the monsters you killed, exactly like abysses.


Having some extra rewards at the end isn't necessarily bad, it pushes you to go to the end of the encounter, it simply gives an extra incentive to finish it.
Balancing the rewards at the end and that come from already killed monsters is what matters.

"

Teigo wrote:

Those are really common too. So failure should not be punishing but mainly feel a bit bad and encouring a player to do it better next time.

Because you say so does not mean that they "should" be like this or that, you are not providing any actual reason.

Those small events' failure hardly matter because you have another one in the next map, you get another change to try right after.
This is much, much worse for uncommon ones, because you don't get the next chance right after, it's the complete other way around here.



That said, the proposition that gives some rewards per wave isn't all that bad, it would not make sense with the current blight chest though, it would need to be done properly, like chests that pop under the pump rather than from the roots ?

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Teigo wrote:

The nerfed (yet understandable so) Version now feels so sad compared.

This is one of the reason was legion was not good for the game/GGG.

- Abysses are way harder to fail then blight Encounters. And they take less time to complete as a Blight.

- Failing Common Encounters on a regular Basis gets way faster frustrating then failing rare big encounters (which of most you can rerun until u got it cleared anyways (6 Portals/UElder stays spawned/Delve can be rerun etc)). Fail a Blight and you are out.
The incentiv was on the "get gud or die trying" thing.
For a "each map" Encounter this is just badshit annoying to deal with.
And since this is a game, that should not be the case lol

A League mechanic should be a fun and rewarding thing you encounter each map. It should be challenging but not on a Boss Fight level. Thats were Blighted Maps would come in to take that part.
League mechanics in Maps should be the cherry on top, not the turd you have to run and get frustrated cause X reason.

- Blight is worse then Legion for the Game atm according to Player Statistics.




Blight has the opposite problem then Legion had.
Legion was rewarding in low maps due to fast farming (glacier) and it did not scale good into high maps.
Blight is rewarding in high maps (mostly due to blighted map sale which is a issue in itself lol).
I stopped running most Blight encounters in Maps Tier 1-10 cause its just not rewarding enough for the time invested.
I clear a whole map in the time a Blight Encounter takes me.

This League is just meh.
But I love the rest they got us in 3.8
Just Blights itself are a big waste of time and a big source of frustraion.

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Teigo wrote:

- Abysses are way harder to fail then blight Encounters. And they take less time to complete as a Blight.

-> abyssal depths => no, not necessarily.

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Teigo wrote:

- Failing Common Encounters on a regular Basis gets way faster frustrating then failing rare big encounters

Nop, seriously, I completely disagree, really.

Plus, if you are failing on a regular basis, the game is clearly showing that it's not a matter of luck or anything, it's a matter of your character just not being able to handle the content, and you should do something to improve it.

And you can then little by little improve it and see improvements, which you can't for an encounter that happens only twice a month or so.

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Teigo wrote:

(which of most you can rerun until u got it cleared anyways (6 Portals/UElder stays spawned/Delve can be rerun etc)). Fail a Blight and you are out.

???
that's a lot of bad faith here.
Delve can be rerun ? Are you aware that everything in a delve gets re-generated ? The only things that don't change are the biome and the remaining walls and rewards that come with it.

Blights are so frequent that it's pretty much the same feeling, fail one ? Ti does not matter, the next one comes right after, it could as well be a re-try at this point.

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Teigo wrote:

For a "each map" Encounter this is just badshit annoying to deal with.
And since this is a game, that should not be the case lol

And now we are down to a "No, this is shit, that's all !"
What an argument we have there.

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Teigo wrote:

A League mechanic should be a fun and rewarding thing you encounter each map. It should be challenging but not on a Boss Fight level. Thats were Blighted Maps would come in to take that part.

Good, that is exactly how it is now at the moment.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Your premise is correct (all-or-nothing feels worse than proportionate rewards), but do consider that this particular weakness is shared by Incursion, Abyss, Legion, and Breach far more than you acknowledge.

All or nothing rewards absolutely did not exist in Breach or Incursion.

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girng wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Your premise is correct (all-or-nothing feels worse than proportionate rewards), but do consider that this particular weakness is shared by Incursion, Abyss, Legion, and Breach far more than you acknowledge.

All or nothing rewards absolutely did not exist in Breach or Incursion.

Rewards were not 'proportionate' in those leagues though :

Breach : The more you fail at it, the less the circle expands and the less you could access rewards, therefore the rewards scaling wasn't linear, if you had troubles clearing it and the circle would expand slowly, you could not access a significant potion of the rewards.


Incursion : the biggest rewards were not accessible if you did not kill the architect, and/or just did not make the rooms accessible of course.


So those were not all or nothing, but were not proportionate either ( like Blight is, you still get the rewards of the mobs you slay, I guess Blight has simply even more incentive towards finishing the event ).

I guess it could be nice if occasionally, one lane would end somewhat significantly earlier than the other, in this case its chest would be accessible regardless of the outcome ( it can happen, but it's pretty much at the end when some mobs are stuck atm ).

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girng wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Your premise is correct (all-or-nothing feels worse than proportionate rewards), but do consider that this particular weakness is shared by Incursion, Abyss, Legion, and Breach far more than you acknowledge.

All or nothing rewards absolutely did not exist in Breach or Incursion.

They absolutely did. In fact, Breach and (especially) Incursion are classic examples of the all-or-nothing reward model, so it's interesting that you chose them to illustrate your argument.

Breach: You completely waste your breachstone if you do not kill the mobs fast enough to keep the breach expanding toward the boss. (I did exactly that, once.)

Incursion: The inability to unlock doors or kill architects makes the temple potentially even less rewarding than a map of the same level.

Perhaps not incidentally, these "fast-or-fail" design decisions also completely lock out the slow-but-sturdy ARPG character archetype in the process, which is imo a much bigger sin than the all-or-nothing reward structure.

(Though at this point in time I honestly think GGG is not collectively creative enough to think of anything other than "fast-or-fail" design anymore. That, or the team members who are that creative are being stifled. Because they sure as hell aren't being heard by those making the final decisions.)

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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girng wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Your premise is correct (all-or-nothing feels worse than proportionate rewards), but do consider that this particular weakness is shared by Incursion, Abyss, Legion, and Breach far more than you acknowledge.

All or nothing rewards absolutely did not exist in Breach or Incursion.

They absolutely did. In fact, Breach and (especially) Incursion are classic examples of the all-or-nothing reward model, so it's interesting that you chose them to illustrate your argument.

Breach: You completely waste your breachstone if you do not kill the mobs fast enough to keep the breach expanding toward the boss. (I did exactly that, once.)

Incursion: The inability to unlock doors or kill architects makes the temple potentially even less rewarding than a map of the same level.

You did not "completely waste" your breachstone, because loot was dropping while you were killing mobs. That is not "all-or-nothing" lmao.

Did you even play Breach? I find it hard to believe you did lol.

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girng wrote:

You did not "completely waste" your breachstone, because loot was dropping while you were killing mobs. That is not "all-or-nothing" lmao.

For this statement to make sense one would have to assume that, according to your definition, the only all-or-nothing league content which can exist require that the game literally void any and all drops while trying to reach the "all" condition.

Your definition is ridiculous. It also completely misses the point of the design distinction we are making in this discussion.

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girng wrote:

Did you even play Breach? I find it hard to believe you did lol.

Why the fuck would I say that I wasted my breachstone once if I had never played any Breach material? (In fact I played the league as well, but that is irrelevant, as the mechanic is in Standard now.)

[Removed by Support]

Please read and respond to what I have actually written, instead of conveniently ignoring what I have actually written in order to call me a liar. [Is that better, GGG mod? It's the same message, only a lot wordier.]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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girng wrote:

You did not "completely waste" your breachstone, because loot was dropping while you were killing mobs. That is not "all-or-nothing" lmao.

For this statement to make sense one would have to assume that, according to your definition, the only all-or-nothing league content which can exist require that the game literally void any and all drops while trying to reach the "all" condition.

Your definition is ridiculous. It also completely misses the point of the design distinction we are making in this discussion.

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girng wrote:

Did you even play Breach? I find it hard to believe you did lol.

Why the fuck would I say that I wasted my breachstone once if I had never played any Breach material? (In fact I played the league as well, but that is irrelevant, as the mechanic is in Standard now.)

[Removed by Support]

The mobs dropped loot while killing monsters in the Breachstone. That is not all-or-nothing. Your definition is ridiculous, not mine.