Oni-Goroshi drop rate is ridiculous.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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The_Scourge wrote:

i actually did, but I also wanted Uber Hillock to spawn *at all levels*. I'm fairly convinced Uber Hillock won't even spawn until you're level 5. I mean, he'd eat your face off at levels 1-4 so I kind of get it...

This would have been a far superior design decision, not least because it would add tension to those first few hours of boring grind, without actually increasing the number of Oni swords in the market, since 95%+ of players wouldn't manage to kill him at that level anyhow.

Oh GGG design people, don't you ever think anything through?

I farmed an Oni myself shortly after it got the 10-act rework, and I have to say it was a dogshit experience with an anticlimactic ending (Hillock was a pushover by the time I got to him at lvl 9). I wrote a thread in my head (I had plenty of time) describing exactly why this particular setup was problematic from a design point of view, but I never bothered writing it up or posting it, for the same reason I no longer bother posting about most of the design problems I encounter in this game: "Why the fuck bother?"

Feel free to rant at me next time I'm in-game. Don't hold your breath though. ;)

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The_Scourge wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

"

The_Scourge wrote:

i actually did, but I also wanted Uber Hillock to spawn *at all levels*. I'm fairly convinced Uber Hillock won't even spawn until you're level 5. I mean, he'd eat your face off at levels 1-4 so I kind of get it...

This would have been a far superior design decision, not least because it would add tension to those first few hours of boring grind, without actually increasing the number of Oni swords in the market, since 95%+ of players wouldn't manage to kill him at that level anyhow.

Oh GGG design people, don't you ever think anything through?

I farmed an Oni myself shortly after it got the 10-act rework, and I have to say it was a dogshit experience with an anticlimactic ending (Hillock was a pushover by the time I got to him at lvl 9). I wrote a thread in my head (I had plenty of time) describing exactly why this particular setup was problematic from a design point of view, but I never bothered writing it up or posting it, for the same reason I no longer bother posting about most of the design problems I encounter in this game: "Why the fuck bother?"

Feel free to rant at me next time I'm in-game. Don't hold your breath though. ;)

Why rant at you? It's not your fault.

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鬼殺し wrote:

True, it's mine.

It's your "fault" that Oni is so much fun. I doubt that you asked GGG to reduce the drop rate to the current rate though?

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鬼殺し wrote:

Also, just to be pedantic, Oni Goroshi's drop rate is ridiculous, because it's 100%. It's getting the monster that has a 100% chance to drop it to spawn that's the bitch.

It's actually not pedantic at all. Setting RNG for the relative spawn rates of special bosses and the relative drop rates of said bosses is a two-fold exercise.

Here my criticism is less harsh, though perhaps the experience of farming would be more interesting for players if the spawn rate were 5x higher but the drop rate were only 20%.

With no change in boss difficulty, of course.

This does point to my earlier issue, of course: Rewarding people for tolerating boredom per se is bad game design, full stop.

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鬼殺し wrote:

But I'll gun-to-head and see who has the courage to respond: does Path of Exile actually have good game design beyond the existing guidelines of what makes a good ARPG?

The answer to that lies in playing the first diablo with beelzebub mod.

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鬼殺し wrote:

No, it really is, because the spawn rate dictates the drop rate. In practice, they're one and the same.

They aren't. You know better. Access to a challenging boss with a 20% drop rate is a subjectively different experience from finding fragments--for example--which give you access to that boss 20% of the time. Even though the overall economic consequences are identical.

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And dude, ALL of PoE is rewarding people for tolerating boredom past a certain point, and that point is far, far sooner than it should be. But, as others have said, your idea of boredom might be someone else's idea of zen bliss. I find mapping boring, grinding twilight strand sort of relaxing. There are almost certainly people who feel the opposite is true.

But I'll gun-to-head and see who has the courage to respond: does Path of Exile actually have good game design beyond the existing guidelines of what makes a good ARPG? Further: are those guidelines conducive to good game design, as gibs here defines it (i.e. gameplay that doesn't reward tolerating boredom)?

OR are we going to have to come to textual blows over that basic full-stop definition itself?

Also...What is boredom?

What is?

What?

Extrinsic vs. intrinsic rewards.

If people pound sand because they literally enjoy running the Twilight Strand over and over again, then they have injected intrinsic reward into the process.

Let's be honest, here. Almost no one does that.

Playing pool or billiards is intrinsically rewarding, and that's why you play it, unless you have already done so for many hours and now have money riding on a bet.

Good ARPG design involves a delicate balance between intrinsic (i.e., fun gameplay) and extrinsic (i.e., drops which feel commensurate with the effort and risk laid out) rewards.

One reason the Labyrinth was the most controversial League content ever introduced is because many players felt that balance was being utterly broken. It was--at the time--the first piece of content which was super-tilted toward extrinsic rewards, at the cost of intrinsically rewarding gameplay. Even fans of the content made comments which supported this assertion.

One reason many players love Legion so much is because they feel a tight, visceral connection between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards: Kill a bunch of statues really fast, and then kill their monsters, and then get a bunch of drops.

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And dude, ALL of PoE is rewarding people for tolerating boredom past a certain point, and that point is far, far sooner than it should be.

It isn't, not for healthy people. If you are mindlessly addicted to the game, well then no hope for you, and you have my sympathy.

But most of us enjoy a particular gameplay loop, and that's why we come back to the game. Even if the physical gameplay isn't as well executed as, say, Diablo III, it is connected to a system which is much deeper and thereby intrinsically more rewarding.

Any system which says "fuck you" to the intrinsic rewards in exchange for an extrinsic reward may as well be a job. Or worse.

Actually, gibbousmoon's idea to 5x uber Hillock but have him drop Oni only 20% of the time would likely improve the experience, I believe.

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Turtledove wrote:

Actually, gibbousmoon's idea to 5x uber Hillock but have him drop Oni only 20% of the time would likely improve the experience, I believe.

Until you kill ten without dropping one :)

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raics wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Actually, gibbousmoon's idea to 5x uber Hillock but have him drop Oni only 20% of the time would likely improve the experience, I believe.

Until you kill ten without dropping one :)

Killing ten Uber Hillocks instead of zero sounds like more fun to me even without an Oni drop. <shrug>

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Turtledove wrote:

Killing ten Uber Hillocks instead of zero sounds like more fun to me even without an Oni drop. <shrug>

What I was trying to say is it's a double edged sword, on one hand it's better if -something- is happening, but on the other hand if nothing is happening you won't get disappoint.