General Discussion - Philosophy in a "closed" beta.Thoughts. - Forum

" CharanJaydemyr wrote: Do you know how much money Grinding Gears Games actually made with Path of Exile before today? Me either, but whatever it was, it didn't come from us. That money they've made with Path of Exile before today didn't come from the people working for them. It didn't come from the servers. It didn't come from the tens of thousands of man-hours. It certainly didn't come from the investors. So when thousands of people suddenly say "we WOULD pay to play this, right now, unfinished or not," you don't really sit and wonder, "gee, what if this makes us look like sell-outs? Like we're commercialising our...product?" You conceive of a fair but profitable series of price-points and (this is the important bit) throw in a beta key for free. Let me repeat that: the beta key is free. It's as free as that bonus dvd you get with your favourite PC gaming magazine. It's as free as frequent flyer points. You are not paying for the key; you're paying for future transactions in the cash store for a game that is (are you tired of hearing this word yet?) free. ...And nothing's ever REALLY free. Not lunch, not bird, not Willy. Seriously. It has to come from somewhere. Who better than the players, who get the most out of whatever funds GGG receives for the betterment of the game? PS I'm not a serious tester, as Chris puts it. I just play. As far as the game is concerned, I'm just a little more lag to deal with, a little more data to process. The game doesn't care about me at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure it hates me. Most of the time, I don't really care much about it either. It's there, I play it, it's fun. I do, however, care very much about the idea of its existence, because a lot of people do care about it. That is the cause I want to champion. Not the game itself, but the fact that it should exist, it should be supported, it should be as good as is possible. It's people like this guy that make wonderful things possible in the world.	Posted by Flytheelephant#0902 on Apr 5, 2012, 2:51:47 PM Quote this Post
" CharanJaydemyr wrote: Do you know how much money Grinding Gears Games actually made with Path of Exile before today? Me either, but whatever it was, it didn't come from us. That money they've made with Path of Exile before today didn't come from the people working for them. It didn't come from the servers. It didn't come from the tens of thousands of man-hours. It certainly didn't come from the investors. So when thousands of people suddenly say "we WOULD pay to play this, right now, unfinished or not," you don't really sit and wonder, "gee, what if this makes us look like sell-outs? Like we're commercialising our...product?" You conceive of a fair but profitable series of price-points and (this is the important bit) throw in a beta key for free. Let me repeat that: the beta key is free. It's as free as that bonus dvd you get with your favourite PC gaming magazine. It's as free as frequent flyer points. You are not paying for the key; you're paying for future transactions in the cash store for a game that is (are you tired of hearing this word yet?) free. ...And nothing's ever REALLY free. Not lunch, not bird, not Willy. Seriously. It has to come from somewhere. Who better than the players, who get the most out of whatever funds GGG receives for the betterment of the game? PS I'm not a serious tester, as Chris puts it. I just play. As far as the game is concerned, I'm just a little more lag to deal with, a little more data to process. The game doesn't care about me at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure it hates me. Most of the time, I don't really care much about it either. It's there, I play it, it's fun. I do, however, care very much about the idea of its existence, because a lot of people do care about it. That is the cause I want to champion. Not the game itself, but the fact that it should exist, it should be supported, it should be as good as is possible. It still costs you 10 dollars. 10 dollars that almost none of the people who did would have spent if it ONLY gave you the credit, and not the beta key. ''Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.'' IGN: Vaeralyse	Posted by Tagek#6585 on Apr 5, 2012, 3:37:56 PM Quote this Post
I love you, Tagek. Seriously. Always the voice of reason on the other side of the fence. I think we're both somewhat right in this case. I'm just 'spinning' it in a way that just happens to be defensible and, how shall we put it, legally correct. But there are plenty of instances where the sale of something has relied on its bonus. "I'm just buying it for the _____ that comes with it" -- surely you have heard that before. Maybe you've even done it before. GGG is doing nothing different here. Now if people did not spend their 100 points of credit at some point, then we could really say it was all about the keys. From your eyes, the credit is the bonus and the key is the purchase. There was no way GGG could put it that way. Imagine the uproar. And there was no way they could 'sell the keys by themselves'. That would be ridiculously unethical. So they did the rather smart thing and bundled them with an actual purchase. Whether you're getting that purchase for what it is or for its bonus...doesn't make a difference. There's the product. Buy or do not buy, for whatever reason you see fit. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period.	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Apr 5, 2012, 6:14:27 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
I've personally donated to 2 games this month, Wasteland 2 and PoE. I did it because maybe I'm a little bit nuts! But I love what the developers vision is, I love the fact it is nothing like the mass manufacted rubbish I feel is being churned out by the 'major' pc games companies today. So I wanted to support them, let them know there's people out that want to see them succeed. I like the fact having the pet ingame, title etc has not made me a better player! I've died 4 times tonight on normal mode and I'm enjoying being suprised for a change in a long long time... That's priceless to me. If GGG chickens made an action RPG, what would it be called? Path of Eggxile, a Peck 'n' Slash RPG. Why was the helmet spluttering? It was a coif.	Posted by Hyaon#5489 on Apr 5, 2012, 6:30:46 PM Quote this Post
Regarding burnout: I'll be honest with you guys. I think GGG gave out too much, too quickly. A more refined, content-rich act 1 would have sufficed for closed beta. The D3 closed beta is just too small. The D2 closed beta was the entire first act of 4. A closed beta is not a public demo, even if there are ways into it that don't involve hand-picking testers. We know that Path of Exile is planned to be 3 acts, and that we've seen 2 of them. I can totally understand why giving early access to that much of a finished game could result in people becoming jaded and unimpressed, especially in the finished game is just one more act. But I've said elsewhere that I believe it's not going to be just one more act. Open beta, perhaps. One dev has said that act 3 is almost done, and I believe that. But I also know that as long as we play, and support (interpret that word how you will; I know I won't be making any more monetary contributions for a little while!), content is likely to be added. They made Wraeclast a continent for a very good reason. It feels like an island, some shipwreck-attracting untouched paradise and all that, but I think we've only seen the edges of Wraeclast. The coast and some slightly inland forest. The NICE bits. If it's anything like Australia, we're going to wish we could stay there, too, because the further inland you go, the less...idyllic it's going to get. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period.	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Apr 5, 2012, 7:00:13 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
y'know a lot of what im reading tends to sound a bit like protectionism, a sense of entitlement from those previously in the "closed" beta that now are feeling less entitled and less special since so many other people have paid their way in. which is a shame really, as in my view every single person playing in this beta phase will bring some benefit to the developers, and the community as a whole, whether they be those that only play (and stress the various servers and systems), those that provide bug reports (which improve the quality of the game for everyone), or those that provide other broader feedback such as thoughts on the mechanics and balance of the game (which im sure is beneficial to the developers as they cannot always think of everything). one other point with a closed beta is it provides the devs with the license and opportunity to radically rework or change major aspects of the game system. im not suggesting PoE needs this, but it does offer the time to try things out without the potential wailing and gnashing of teeth this might evoke during an open beta phase where many more people have invested time in their characters and skills only to have them wiped or nerfed on successive updates. at the end of the day i'm confident that GGG are making the right decisions to get the best game into everyones hands in the best possible condition.	Posted by ualac#0162 on Apr 5, 2012, 8:56:00 PM Quote this Post
" ualac wrote: y'know a lot of what im reading tends to sound a bit like protectionism, a sense of entitlement from those previously in the "closed" beta that now are feeling less entitled and less special since so many other people have paid their way in. Provide some documentary quotes to support your position, please? =0[.]o= =^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/ whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled / =-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =[.]= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie	Posted by Raycheetah#7060 on Apr 5, 2012, 10:01:11 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" ualac wrote: y'know a lot of what im reading tends to sound a bit like protectionism, a sense of entitlement from those previously in the "closed" beta that now are feeling less entitled and less special since so many other people have paid their way in. which is a shame really, as in my view every single person playing in this beta phase will bring some benefit to the developers, and the community as a whole, whether they be those that only play (and stress the various servers and systems), those that provide bug reports (which improve the quality of the game for everyone), or those that provide other broader feedback such as thoughts on the mechanics and balance of the game (which im sure is beneficial to the developers as they cannot always think of everything). one other point with a closed beta is it provides the devs with the license and opportunity to radically rework or change major aspects of the game system. im not suggesting PoE needs this, but it does offer the time to try things out without the potential wailing and gnashing of teeth this might evoke during an open beta phase where many more people have invested time in their characters and skills only to have them wiped or nerfed on successive updates. at the end of the day i'm confident that GGG are making the right decisions to get the best game into everyones hands in the best possible condition. Sad but true. There really is a redolence of elitism to the idea of opening up the beta resulting in 'banalising' the game or however it was put. I was hoping we'd be able to maintain the attitude displayed during the beta weekend, when not only the devs but the 'locals' did their best to be welcoming and helpful to newcomers. I hope a lot, though. That's fairly evident. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period.	Posted by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Apr 5, 2012, 10:05:16 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" MythzFreeze wrote: WE wanted this. WE wanted to throw our money at the game for a beta key and a few game credits. You still don't have to pay a cent to play this game, nothing changed, everyone still gets wiped when the game goes open beta Agreed, thats the point, GGG was responding to a public request, most of the people who have shelled out have done so because they want to show their appreciation for the effort the Devs put in ... and because they enjoy playing the freakin game. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? This isn't a sell out, what blizzard has done to D3 is a sellout! Bring me my bow of burning gold Bring me my arrows of desire..... If i am a troll who is no troll who then is the troll? http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/53626 }:) 'I rise from the ashes of my own defeat, only to be smitten down again...' - Some poor soul.	Posted by Nemesis5858#7304 on Apr 5, 2012, 10:27:05 PM Quote this Post
" Raycheetah wrote: " ualac wrote: y'know a lot of what im reading tends to sound a bit like protectionism, a sense of entitlement from those previously in the "closed" beta that now are feeling less entitled and less special since so many other people have paid their way in. Provide some documentary quotes to support your position, please? =0[.]o= sure, only have to take a look at the starting post in the thread: " The Philosophy behind Path of Exile has changed in my point of view with the implementation of donations for closed beta acess. statement that the game has changed. admittedly doesnt claim this is neither good nor bad so continuing on; " The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are ... willing to test the software without charge a claim that theres a distinction in those fine folk that put themselves out as beta testers willing to bear the burden of broken or buggy software, free-of-charge, doing us a service, out of the kindness of their own generosiy. note the "without charge" part of that last statement. again a separation or distinction between the perhaps true beta testers, and the others. " ...closed beta versions are released to a restricted group of individuals for a user test by invitation again, theres a distinction that membership in the closed beta is an invite only, granted on merit, position of importance. " paid early access will grant you as it says an early access of the final product, not unfinished has a "closed beta" status should be should be the way im reading this is only hardworking and dedicated beta testers (invited, got there on merit, but didnt pay tho) deserve the right to shape this game, and those going outside the system of qualifying (waiting for a random lottery win on a forum) for access though payment should wait until its damned well finished.	Posted by ualac#0162 on Apr 5, 2012, 10:31:03 PM Quote this Post