Why is shit tier map farming more rewarding than red tier map farming.

That's Hack'n Slash, baby !

That's Hack'n Slash, baby !

Even if i can understand your frustration

Because GGG does not design their game around difficulty, it’s designed around grind. It’s been their recipe for years now. They basically treat their players like idiots. Keep buying supporter packs to prove that

The map system is designed specifically to prevent players from engaging in difficult content. Risk reward is entirely out of wack in the game, because they don't want you taking risks and then thinking the game is hard.

"

Baron01 wrote:

Was anyone testing this and came to a conclusion that higher maps or map quantity impact number of splinters dropped by Legion NPCs and chests?

Yes, it was tested, your personal quant doesn't in any way interact with the splinters. Map-quant on the other hand might.

"

Baron01 wrote:

My experience on my ED/Contagion Trickster with early red maps, lvl11 - 13, indicates that there is very little difference. Granted, my sample size is small but war hoard in red maps can drop from 4 to 9 splinters, which is pretty much the same as lower maps--I would say white/yellow maps can drop between 3 to 8.

Yes, the same experience here, the difference is extremely small, the only reason to go higher with Legion is the weighted drop-rate of Incubators which get ever more valuable in higher tiers. They extra income of those is easily made with simply running low-tier as well though, quantity of maps instead of quality of drops.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Spoiler

I know I'm super late to this conversation, and I hope people aren't too invested in this back-and-forth to let me try to offer clarity on what I think OP is talking about re: easier content is more rewarding than T16 maps.

TLDR: it absolutely is, provided you're talking about a loot-per-hour basis, not loot-per-map. I think a lot of people in this thread aren't using the same basis as each other, which is why they're disagreeing while all saying things that are objectively correct.

Anyway. As Kulze mentioned, Glacier almost always has the monolith right at the entrance to the map. So does Alleyways, for that matter. And those are T2 maps, which means they are are both

A, effortless to sustain even if you run them white and
B, dirt cheap if you ever have to buy them in bulk.

This gives you the freedom to start a map, do ONLY the monolith, and then immediately portal back out. Next map, monolith, out. Repeat. Repeat.

Monoliths are so ridiculously rewarding if you're running a super clearing build that finishing the map feels like a complete waste of time, UNLESS you have to care about map sustain.

You can buy about 300 replacement T2 maps for a single exalt, each of which average out (in my experience running tons of Alleyways on TShot Slayer) to 5-10c in under a minute. Easily multiple exalts per hour, PLUS a steady supply of splinters/emblems to run later on my Berserker. Even my best build of the league so far, which is CERTAINLY no slouch when it comes to clear speed (full Rage/Blitz berserker), can't churn T16 maps nearly fast enough to average several exalts per hour after the cost of maps/chisels/sextants is subtracted.

So yes, of course you get better overall loot from a single T16 monolith than you do in a single white monolith. It just doesn't matter, because it isn't TEN TIMES better, which is the margin it would need to compete with someone running ED / Tornado Shot / etc that opens a map, effortlessly blows away a few screens of lvl 70 enemies, grabs the loot, and is clicking on the next monolith a minute later.

And I'll certainly admit that I don't know the solution to this. Because making T16 monoliths explode into dozens of splinters each and/or making it impossible to get more than one or two splinters per white tier map would only widen the gap between the CASUAL PLEBS and NOLIFE LOOZERS even further than using You-Know-What for Emblem runs already has, and that's already such a hot button issue that I'm scared to type its name into this thread. Maybe making the rate of Generals spawning in the monolith SIGNIFICANTLY higher as map tier rises would do the trick, though? That way you're rewarded for doing higher content with better access to the Domains, provided you're willing to work for it.

Or maybe I'm completely overthinking the issue and the solution is as simple as "always put the monolith far away from the entrance portal." At any rate, it's certainly something worth further discussion both here and at GGGHQ, because I would say the profitability of sandblasting T2 monoliths is about as high as a 600 Delve, only its super easy and you never have to stop.

I have to agree with this nearly completely, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

As for map prices, 1 Glacier in Bulk is 2c right now for that reason, so they're fairly expensive for white-maps, nonetheless you'll sustain effortless when shaping the Atlas respective to it, even while only running the Monolith.

The solution for the issue is to skew the drops of respective incubators and their rewards accordingly, weighting is all that counts. T1 maps mostly dropping lower currency, lower incubators, lower everything. Especially the weighting of which factions appear is an important part GGG COULD do, but probably won't.

And yes, 600 Delve is probably roughly the same, common farming methods are - once again - put to shame by the league-mechanic in low-tier rather then focusing on rewarding high-tier content. It sadly has become a common theme over the leagues.

"

Head_Less wrote:

You are supposed to re-roll after 90+ only those who level to 100 need to do those maps. So why should they be rewarding? If they make those maps rewarding then they ll lower drops in lower maps for sure and you get most of the player base angry that they won t loot shit.

Because inherently challenge=reward is a good system. If you don't need lvl 100 for anything then you won't push for it most likely, the same goes for running high-tier content. Something more profitable with less effort? Sure, that's the way to go.
People go the way of least resistance, why should someone expend time and effort to do something hard otherwise unless there's a personal goal or overall achievement behind it?

"

Kulze wrote:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDK-lP6lB_8&t

Nuff said about that. The same trick works still, so yes, I even took a smaller number for the sake of not overdoing it.

Look how rare, time intensive, investment intensive what he just did was, how absurd the effort he went to was. That is in no way a common thing, that is a showpiece thing done for funs once in a blue moon. And you know this, youre not trying to say every map gives you this so fair play. Heres the thing tho:

you responded to someone saying that alch n go on red maps is inefficient. Thats what I was responding to. not a comment on t16 farming.

"

Once again you're seemingly speaking about T11-15 and not T16 here, those often won't even be worth to use the relevant methods on

"

I never said I'm only running those mods, they are the bonus while rushing through maps, not the norm. I'm not wasting currency to get them, they appear relatively often when running enough maps after all, no need to seek them directly, that would be fairly dumb.

"

maps are worth quite a lot after all, they make a big chunk of your profit at T16

right, agree with these statements, the methods you describe and the returns you describe are something you do on elder maps and once in a while hit a combo of mods and investments that give the kind of returns you are talking about, and a lot of the profit that comes from these investments is simply the sustain, getting maps back, counting the value of those maps IF you were to trade them.

I agree with what ur saying in these above statements, but thats talking about elder maps and counting in a theoretical monetary value on map sustain.

Alch n go for red mapping is fine, its probably the smartest way to do it. You can sustain red maps easily on alch n go so the whole sustain part of the profit doesnt exist and plowing all these investments into these maps is gonna leave you with many, many maps throwing back significant net losses as a result which in the big picture is eating away the profits you get when you hit the investment jackpot, esp when you start adding in time investments vs just throw on alch storm map repeat super quick.


when you fully go into detail about exactly what you mean I agree with what ur saying, I was just responding to:

"

If you're doing red-tier farming via alch&go you're very inefficient.

taken on face value.

just general running regular red maps and your regular non sustain returns from doing that. If were talking specific elder map chaining counting the sustain of elder maps into your profits then sure, thats a different thing, Ill agree with that. I run my elder maps corrupted, 3 frags, zana modded, 3 sextants, fully prophecies, im running particular map rolls depending on the sextants to maximise their effectiveness, Im rolling every strong box in every map for what I think will be its max potential return given all the other mechanics in play, absolutely, and what justifies that investment to me is mostly my sustain of those maps. Im not expecting to actually make a net currency profit outside of the map sustain, im hoping to break even when the jackpot situations line up and pay back the heavy continual investment im pumping in to my hour by hour grind. On the whole I think im probably losing money over all when I take out the factor of map sustain, the sustain is, as you say, a big part of the 'profit' of these investments.


So I dont think i disagree with you, I think we were just talking about different things at first.

"

Dr1MaR wrote:

Because GGG does not design their game around difficulty, it’s designed around grind. It’s been their recipe for years now. They basically treat their players like idiots. Keep buying supporter packs to prove that

"

j33bus wrote:

The map system is designed specifically to prevent players from engaging in difficult content. Risk reward is entirely out of wack in the game, because they don't want you taking risks and then thinking the game is hard.

yeah I sadly have to agree with both of these statements.



everything about this sort of game from the players side is risk reduction. you want to risk the least to gain the most. Why do I put items on my character? why do I put passives into my tree? I want to get more powerful so that I am at less risk and I am better equipped to gain more. Die less, kill more. the whole thing from the players side is inherently trying to minimise difficulty and increase reward at every stage, with every decission.


The game should be trying to make us take the risks, it should be using rewards to force our hand into difficulty risk. What GGG does instead is make it hard to reach and sustain risky content. You have to gamble your already earned rewards in order to attempt to put yourself at a higher risk, and more often than not the reward for that investment and risk is not going to pay you back. You simply got to take the risk and hope that your loss of investment allows you to take the risk again?


its totally fucked up.


a player shouldnt feel like theyre gambling and paying to end up in the madness of an 8 mod zana modded triple sextant t16 map. That difficulty, that risk of death should be forced upon them, the game should be making it a big financial risk to NOT be playing that content. Instead you are asked to risk your finances so you can risk your characters life... while the entire structure of being a good player in this sort of game is to do everything you can to minimise financial and difficulty risk?

terrible design.



theyve just made a new league, and on a podcast roundtable discussion between very experienced players talking about this league there discussing if its even worth running the new content added in this league for the majority of players vs just selling it to an infinitesimal elite of players on the market....

thats an actual discussion that they deem significant. this is a game, something people are supposed to play, and they think its a good idea to set it up so that people can trade their ability to play content and have to make serious choices about if they play the game or sell their ability to play it. Thats a decission they think its a good idea to put in front of players. Why do we call them players, what do you call people who partake in a game? why do we call them players? is that maybe because they play the game? does a game not exist first and foremost to be played? Is that not the entire point of its existance?


I love ggg, and theres so much good to say about this game, but man have they got some massively fucked up ideas and just absolute idiocy baked into their game as a result.

"

Head_Less wrote:

when I started max map was 76. You are not supposed to "farm" red ttier maps it is only there for the challenge and for those who want to play past the limit where a build won t get better anymore.

You are supposed to re-roll after 90+ only those who level to 100 need to do those maps. So why should they be rewarding? If they make those maps rewarding then they ll lower drops in lower maps for sure and you get most of the player base angry that they won t loot shit.

People doing red tiers are minority, it should not be rewarding in loot but in XP toward the level 100 goal.

there is some very valid thoughts in this statement tho, this cant be entirely discounted.


it brings up a fair more detailed discussion which for the sake of tldr Im not gonna dive fully into the depths of in this post. But for sure theres a fair point here. It brings into question ideas like how much extra xp u get for your risk, putting yourself as risk of losing xp or your entire character vs how much xp you get back as a result...

I think we see ppl like hvr racing to 100 just transmuting t11/12 maps in some leagues, because that makes sense. I think we have situations of players feeling like they have to make bad decisions both in terms of financial risk and xp/character risk just to attempt to make the game fun because theyre in a situation where the game is shit from the perspective of being a game unless they do that. Its like ok, Im gonna make my game chaotic and hard even tho it makes no sense in terms of the motivations of a player just because GGG are making their game badly and im gonna try and force this to be a good game at the expense of what I know makes sense as a player within this framework.

I think theres examples where we can look and see that while ideas of content being there simply for xp like this makes sense, the balance and effect on the game from a wider perspective is still wonky as hell.

Well said, I can only +1 the whole notion you've written, especially about the problem regarding challenge versus reward, GGG does one of the worst jobs on the market in this regard, the only reason the game is still great is the other parts holding it afloat.

Basically the difference between PoE being a 'good' game and a 'fantastic' one.

As for the farming, alch&go red maps are definitely sub-par to properly set up T16 ones over time, even without selling map drops. I made steady profit by running them 2 leagues in a row in Synthesis as well as Betrayal.
On the other hand both options still are sub-par (sadly) to Legion in low-tier, the return of 100 glacier maps is roughly 700c for me, the investment.... 100 alchs, ED/Contagion can run any mod after all. Danger? Zero literally. The only stop-gap is sorting through all the loot after a while.

The term "farm" is a word used in the gaming industry to describe a process that amounts to slightly higher than nothing.

Snorkle_uk Thanks for bringing some good points. I think more and more games nowadays designed with a similar concept in mind. Older games used to be much more challenging and rewarding for the harder content. GGG, unfortunately, decided to go the easy way and provide a sandbox for their players so they don't have to get out from their comfort zone and try harder content. The whole concept of a game, in my opinion, is to get better and improve yourself so you can be more successful and efficient with the time you spent on the game. Poe is a game where pushing to do harder content is actually more punishing than rewarding. I start to lose faith it will ever change unless people vote with their vallets.