How to address the growing problem of power creep of items, and builds in PoE.

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Dudebag wrote:

you are not looking at my point tho i like challenges and all.
but uber elder etc is old content, should be accessible. heck it is part of the quest.

maybe after the quest, uber elders or guardians should be able to add mods to make them stronger but then again reward is hard to balance.

the real players would find themselves some challenge. some go super deep in delve, some play ssf league.
actually in any game, best of the best players restrict themselves to make things challenge for them.
that is in my opinion, best players.
asking devs to make the content that only those type can do, is ego taking over.


i havent put much time in this league so i can't tell but if end bosses are not hard then, i do agree to make it harder. i personally believe that newer content end bosses should be difficult. not in a way of unavoidable one shot, but deeper mechanics. betrayal boss before some adjustment was fun to me. finding out the mechanic , figuring out the fight was fun.
altho this game has 6 portals, so that makes it a bit frustrating for players finding out the mechanics etc. but challenge is a challenge.


anyway making a game so difficult that only 1% or less can do , isn't gonna fit.
clear difference in thinking about the mass or ones ego

You're right, uber-elder is 'old' content, though he's beyond the progression hurdle of T16. Uber-elder is supposed to be the part of the game players can boast about clearing, the 1% content which the more skill-based part of the game seeks. The 'git gud' mechanic of the game simply.

New mechanics - at the moment - introduced on the other hand are side-content, things which should add to the lore, offer new mechanics, create a change of pace. All of those are somewhat gated behind running maps directly, implemented in more or less frustrating ways there.

Or to make it more visible: Uber-elder was 3.1.0 and introduced as an actual expansion to the game-play, not a simple league-mechanic, furthering the core-gameplay, everything else since then... Abyss, Delve, incursion, Bestiary, Synthesis, Betrayal... those all are 'just' side-content, not meant to be the end-point of playing PoE.

So, yes, if someone has the ability to 'zoom' uber-elder through his phases in a few seconds, then that's an issue.
We got a huge issue of the hardest boss of the game has this gameplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWSAw4l8P0
Less then 2 Minutes for how many phases? I just know it's over 10, never counted. A fight which is supposed to take 10-20 minutes, be extremely hard and demanding, and always be a thrill even with the strongest available builds. Well... not anymore so sadly.

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robmafia wrote:

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sublimenotions wrote:

I would say it totally is about ego. You don't faceroll end game content because you have knowledge or skill, you faceroll it because you googled a build, copy pasted it, and sat at your desk for 12 hours a day for 3 months.

the delusion is real.

i never used a build guide in my life (for any game).

12 hours/day for 3 months? my god, man.

yeah, the only reason people are better than you (apparently, via this absurd projection) is because they copy something and no-life.

the game is easy. the game is pathetically easy for anyone with game knowledge.

AGAIN, no one's ego is why this is easy. it's all the absurd amounts of power creep that trivialized the game's own content.

The game is insanely easy, it's just ridiculous. It's not about DPS only either. The game is not about skill or knowledge AT ALL, it's TRASH.

Here's a build that I made in Incursion, it can literally facetank 100% everything that Shaper shoots and almost everyone who did this build killed Uber Elder deathless when they never had even seen the fight before.

No broken mechanics, no broken skills, just very optimized through game knowledge. The best part is that this build got buffed by double in strength the next league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otw2wThN3TQ

I could make even 2x stronger build now if the game wouldn't suck dick, but it does! Even when power creep wasn't out of hand, I played MAX 8 hours per day for 2-3 weeks of the league and quit. Now I could achieve the same results in 3 days where 1.5 of it would go on just sprinting through boring content to get to maps because of acts / lab / quests which I've already done 10x.

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Kulze wrote:

You're right, uber-elder is 'old' content, though he's beyond the progression hurdle of T16. Uber-elder is supposed to be the part of the game players can boast about clearing, the 1% content which the more skill-based part of the game seeks. The 'git gud' mechanic of the game simply.

New mechanics - at the moment - introduced on the other hand are side-content, things which should add to the lore, offer new mechanics, create a change of pace. All of those are somewhat gated behind running maps directly, implemented in more or less frustrating ways there.

Or to make it more visible: Uber-elder was 3.1.0 and introduced as an actual expansion to the game-play, not a simple league-mechanic, furthering the core-gameplay, everything else since then... Abyss, Delve, incursion, Bestiary, Synthesis, Betrayal... those all are 'just' side-content, not meant to be the end-point of playing PoE.

So, yes, if someone has the ability to 'zoom' uber-elder through his phases in a few seconds, then that's an issue.
We got a huge issue of the hardest boss of the game has this gameplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWSAw4l8P0
Less then 2 Minutes for how many phases? I just know it's over 10, never counted. A fight which is supposed to take 10-20 minutes, be extremely hard and demanding, and always be a thrill even with the strongest available builds. Well... not anymore so sadly.

you're right, about the content. i look at the new league as a tiny content. and i personally expect those leagues to be slightly harder than previous content.
i dont like this 3 months league stuff that GGG is doing, it is coming out unpolished and simply put, a mess.
like you mentioned uber came out as an expansion. i think it's time to release new ones.
and ofc, those new ones should be harder. at the start, then it should become accessible over time.

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robmafia wrote:

when the core of the game is based on ladders and economics.

According to you. I and many other people don't give a shit about ladder. Nobody gave a shit about ladder or economics in d2, or d3, or any other action rpgs. If you want useful economics then you play standard anyways where loot has value. This mythology of a reset economy being a "good" thing is just that, myth. Everything is worth a whole lot less because its going to be lost in 3 months. Yet, the value of currency in a league is not worth more (in terms of its function) than in standard. So, if I sell an item for 150c in standard thats only worth 10c in the league, I objectively get more value because I have more crafting options in standard than I do league because I have more currency.

No where in game does it ever talk about needing to be about "economy" or ladders. No where in game do you even see ladders or anyone who "won" them; what ever that is supposed to mean anyways, hundreds of people hit 100 in ladders. Nobody remembers who did it first.

There is no more incentive to play the meta builds in poe than there is incentive to play the meta in a soulsborne game, or warframe, or any other single player game. Saying its about competition and striving to be the best is a joke. And even if it was about that, even if poe was the starcraft 2 of action rpgs; the better player would STILL be the one who wins at a disadvantage. You would still have incentive to not do the meta, because its not about whether you win or not its about how much more do you win by. Winning by a few inches isn't as good as winning by miles.

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sublimenotions wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

when the core of the game is based on ladders and economics.

According to you. I and many other people don't give a shit about ladder. Nobody gave a shit about ladder or economics in d2, or d3, or any other action rpgs.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

d2's ladders are why poe has them, to begin with. this is some next-level ignorance.

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sublimenotions wrote:

No where in game does it ever talk about needing to be about "economy" or ladders

this guy.

hahahahahahahahahahahahhaa

https://www.pathofexile.com/game

LITERALLY the second sentence in poe's game description.

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pathofexile, the game itself wrote:

Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. It is designed around a strong online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races.

there is always going to be some sort of power creep, it's just something you have to deal with yourself.

PoE has managed it quite well unlike d3 (some of the buff in their upcoming patch adding 3000% damage to some stuff)

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robmafia wrote:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

d2's ladders are why poe has them, to begin with. this is some next-level ignorance.

this guy.

hahahahahahahahahahahahhaa

https://www.pathofexile.com/game

LITERALLY the second sentence in poe's game description.

Yes, PoE has them because a small fraction - not the majority! - of players enjoy it, it's a business strategy to reel in people who are out for competition. That doesn't mean it's all about that, simply a part. You know, the 'only black and white seeing' thing I wrote to you.

The same goes for his comment, nowhere IN the game it's mentioned, you can't even look up the ladder IN the game, it's a separate content provided by the website, for those who have an interest in it.

If you ask around, probably 90% of the people in SC have only looked at it a single time, or never. Which doesn't mean it hasn't got a place in the game, it's just not the main focus of it.

The same goes for the economy, the only reason why cheap items are sought-after in league is for newer players not to be overwhelmed. The majority doesn't understand how to farm yet, or how to upgrade their character. Having to work a week of their time for a single item - which another player gets in an hour - is off-putting for many. This is alleviated by the 'reset' of the economy in leagues.

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sublimenotions wrote:

According to you. I and many other people don't give a shit about ladder. Nobody gave a shit about ladder or economics in d2, or d3, or any other action rpgs. If you want useful economics then you play standard anyways where loot has value. This mythology of a reset economy being a "good" thing is just that, myth. Everything is worth a whole lot less because its going to be lost in 3 months. Yet, the value of currency in a league is not worth more (in terms of its function) than in standard. So, if I sell an item for 150c in standard thats only worth 10c in the league, I objectively get more value because I have more crafting options in standard than I do league because I have more currency.

D2 had a very thriving community about ladders actually, far more then PoE has, this changed with D3 though as the 'hardcore' community left for... well... PoE mostly.
Also nothing is ever 'lost' in PoE, everything is transferred to standard, where it stays and everyone has access to it. That's the major upside and why many players who usually like standard only even take a look at the league. To play the new mechanic, get the new items presented there and add them then to their builds in standard. Also because farming up mirrors in league is a lot easier then in standard, this can easily be seen with Empyrian for instance, usually he and his group got around 10-20 mirrors after the first month of league, if not more.

While most of us don't give a s**t about ladders or economy in leagues, a big enough chunk of the player-base does to be relevant, so it has to be taken into account as well when discussing changes which will affect that.

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Kulze wrote:

Yes, PoE has them because a small fraction - not the majority! - of players enjoy it, it's a business strategy to reel in people who are out for competition. That doesn't mean it's all about that, simply a part. You know, the 'only black and white seeing' thing I wrote to you.

The same goes for his comment, nowhere IN the game it's mentioned, you can't even look up the ladder IN the game, it's a separate content provided by the website, for those who have an interest in it.

...it's from the page to DOWNLOAD THE GAME. and actually, this forum is part of the game. it may not be part of the game CLIENT...

how do you think i can do this?

yeah, this is totallllly unrelated to the game and completely separate. yes, this is sarcasm. again.


edit: seriously, you are my absolute favorite account. never before have i seen someone type so many words and be wrong... EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

As I see it, accommodating power creep on the player side with power creep on the enemy side can work as a temporal fix at best. Power creep has the effect of killing old content that didn't catch up (like skills and items) so it adds to development costs that could go elsewhere (GGG needs to make replacement content or rebalance previous stuff). If mismanaged it can get silly and damage the game (arguably melee was powercreept to the death, for example).

On the other hand, nerfs create a lot of negative reactions so there is a limit to what can the playerbase tolerate.

So the solution must be on managing to stabilize the power for players and enemies alike while introducing new stuff and catching up whatever was made obsolete (or at least making power increases really small). That is very hard to actually do, specially with something as complex as PoE, I bet it must be a top concern for Chris and the rest given all of the above.

Anyway, let's remember the game was truly stupid a few years ago balance wise. I remember when immortality was truly at hand.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Anyway, let's remember the game was truly stupid a few years ago balance wise. I remember when immortality was truly at hand.

...what do you mean "was?"