Lack of 2nd weapon slot items (scabbards ) for 2h melee (staves too) hurt it s build diversity.
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Yes in a sense we could go the route "what is the difference between barrage and Lancing spear?"
" one have a quiver, the other cry in a corner" and complain about ranged having it all in this game like usual. But here it is not only about bOws. When I looked the pool of mods You can put on a shield or a 2nd weapon (to create some basic or special stat sticks) I was baffled by the difference of build possibilities someone can have compared to 2h "melee". They gave new mods for 2h melee too BUT you have to craft them on the main weapon, taking away spots for the "needed" phy%-flat phy%-attack speed. Rolling a 2h weapon is really hard and those mods dilute the pool even more . A 2h melee player need then to make the choice to forget about those new interesting mods and try to get the basics + maybe 1 more interesting mod. somehow 1h+2nd weapons slot/quivers have none of this . They can create a basic dps main weapon and make something original on their side with the 2nd slot. They can then create some monstrosity and ingenious new ways to play . 2h melee can t because they can t afford the effort to use those new mods and loose their good old dps stats. MAybe if GGG don t like the idea of 2h melee running around with something on their back then instead what they could get is adding one or two more mod slot on them to craft mods? Poe Pvp experience https://youtu.be/Z6eg3aB_V1g?t=302 Last edited by Head_Less#6633 on Nov 28, 2018, 2:09:40 AM
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Agreed. I haven't played 2H melee since Legacy league (and that was ancestral Warchief totem), only 2W because it's superior to the other two styles.
A bow is 2H weapon, its much safer to play than 2H melee AND gets bonus stats from quiver. Makes no sense. Scabbards are a great idea that would equalize this. Not to mention that you have to 6L two items to fully minmax a 2H build. 2W with stat-stick is just superior in every aspect When night falls
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" Wanted to point that out too, I completely agree. If scabbard gets added someday, I hope it's as an off-hand option ( but I hardly see the point to be honest ). 2H need some love, but no need to add another item slot imho ( and it's definitely not somehing with a light cost for GGG to add so ... ). Power creep itself has been screwing 2H to some extent I think. 2H supposedly have the superior dps but .... - many builds just don't need that superior dps - many builds reach that high dps without 2H - ..... stack sticks ? I'd rather they rework the dmg output of whole players and scale some high end encounter's life down ( even if so slightly, especially one ). " True that, beyond "weapons don't really have any identity" in PoE ... attacks don't really have an identity anymore at this point t__t SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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I disagree with the op.
I have Juggernaut Marauder, and i`m always for balance, and strongly against nerfs for classes specificly, just because someone see somewhere build that does ton of damage, but doesn`t know how much is involved in this build and how much currency is spend, or build speciality so this character to be good. So my Marauder at level 94, Heavy Strike, Vulnerability/Determination aura, deals perfectly enough damage with Starforge, and the invesment put into this character is nothing special. I`m also close to 8000 life(Belly of the Beast) and in 2 lvl will be there. Resist obviosly are easy maxed, defence are okay with determination. Clear speed is great with Heavy/Ancestral Call /Melee Splash. I would also say that you can achieve good speed and even more damage if you remove Ancestral Call. I`m about to put Physical Impresence, free vuln. mana, put Herald of Purity, some few correction and with overall nothing special in investment you have very good balanced character. The problem is when people decide to go all in offense, and then dying a lot and start crying this is weak, need buff and blq, blq, blq. I also have Gladiator - sword and shield. First off you can`t make solid one hand + shield on budget. You will simply su*** here or there. I invest like 100x more in my Gladiator, and it`s not as complete as my Juggernaut, who is far from complete in items. It`s have good defense due to the high block rate, but life is 6,5k with very solid items, damage and clear speed is slower, armour and dmg reduction is 20% less, compare to my Juggernaut as well. My Gladiator will become great, when i put 480PDS+ sword, and put insanely gear in every slot. Then will be insane, but every character with so much invesment will be great. So one hand builds are not so great, as some think. Dual Wield is real great. Passives are simply bear, compare to shield one, give better stats, and even on budget gear will triple my damage. But most Dual Wield build are focused straight on power, and lack defense big time, armour is low, HP is low, so i don`t see a reason for a nerf there. Let me put you some point, why two handed are good at the moment, and not lacking compare to one handers: I will talk about sword, that is what i play and know: 1. You have great end game Unique weapon for cheap, unlike one hand, and that weapon is Starforge. For Ele you have Voidforge, also great weapon. One handers don`t have that. If one handers want solid sword, 480PDPS+, they need to pay 80+ Exalted or more. You see my point there. 2. One handers have the same sockets, as two handers. But two handers have huge advantage here, because one handers, have 2 items with just 3 sockets, while two-handers have 2x 6l CHEST AND WEAPON. That is a huge advantage. For example my Heavy Strike is 6led, and then i have 6l on Ancestral Warchief, and i can summon it on boss, and move arround and he will kill it, because it`s 6l and do insane amount of damage. One handers need all of their socket, and they can`t even make 4l on Ancestral. And you have like one hundred option in there .... Because of that 6l, you can also wear Kaom's Roots without a problem, and go to 10k life on good gear and still insane damage. Something impossible for one handers. That is huge, huge advantage. 3. Next big advantage you have is Kaom's Heart. One handers simply can`t use, because they are losing their 6l. You will still have 6l, and insane amount of hp. Don`t wanna talk about if you have legacy Kaom, which i think should return in same point back at 1000 life. 6s drawback, no resist, no other stats, not high armour is huge drawback. Yeah 1000 life is a huge boost, but they should make them more rare, and all will be allright. So i disagree that two handers are in bad situation compare to one handers. I would say that one hander + shield are in bad spot, and are there for long time, they also get nerfed last time arround with block nerfs, but i don`t complain, just trying to get better gear, to make better build, to find better solution and that is. Every build can be succesfull with right investment. Not every build can have as high damage or defense or life as some other. That is the diversity. |
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" Stat sticks and abyss jewels 'beat' pretty much all of your points I'm afraid. For example, let's take the top HC Delve ladder, the 40 first characters. - Support ( 1H + shield ) : 8 - Archer : 18 - Caster ( 1H + shield ) : 3 - Caster : ( DW ) : 1 - Necro ( 1H + shield ) : 1 - Trapper ( 1H + shield ) : 4 - RF ( 1H + shield ) : 2 - 2H Melee ( 2H ) : 1, with Kitava's feast, not starforge - DV melee ( DW ) : 2 I took HC Delve instead of SSF HC Delve because one of your point was starforge being easily accessible. But if we look at the SSF HC Delve ladder ( only top 20 ) : Archer : 3 Trapper ( 1W + shield ) : 4 DW melee ( DW ) : 3 1H Melee ( 1H + shield ) : 1 Caster ( 1H + Shield ) : 2 DW Caster : 2 Necro ( 1H + shield ) : 2 Necro ( 2H ) : 1, because Soulwrest RF ( 1H + shield ) : 1 CoC ( 1H + shield ) : 1, with Cospri of course So .... not many 2H, are there ? 2H are not in a good spot If you want budget 1H weapon, you can have Hyaen's fury for elemental builds, or just brightbeak for elemental builds, or for phys weapon you can just fossil craft pretty damn good ones too. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" That is actually a solid idea indeed, though it has a disadvantage when it comes to crafting or just finding good weapons which might make it worse in the long run. More "clean" solutions is actually an offhand slot, or adding new implicit modifiers in all two handed melee weapons, or simply boosting even more the dps of melee weapons so it doesnt feel like we are missing things by going there or actually we miss them but make the choice ourselves prefering more damage rather than utility/defences cause as it is now even at the damage department an above average geared 2hander has less dmg than an above average geared two weapon fighter Inundated with cockroaches, I am
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216 - labyrinth rework ideas/suggestions |
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Theese stat sticks may work on Dual Wield, but has zero effect on one hand and shield, atleast characters i play.
And what exactly you shown with that HC delve ladder? And why first 40 char, where there is more then 120, that reach level 100 ? And what exactly is your point there? What exactly character level have to do with the dilema ? And if we have to talk about such statistics and stats: Juggernaut is the second played Ascendancy in Delve. Gladiator and Berserker are the last. Slayer - obviously 2hander is way ahead. Lets see so called 90+ HC Class - Level 90+ Hardcore Delve leagues - Not Dead Juggernaut 16.37% Pathfinder 9.89% Necromancer 9.45% Ascendant 8.93% Guardian 7.80% Occultist 7.44% Elementalist 7.28% Saboteur 6.38% Hierophant 5.47% Gladiator 3.90% Deadeye 3.74% Champion 3.64% Trickster 3.56% Chieftain 2.25% Slayer 1.73% Raider 0.98% Inquisitor 0.62% Berserker 0.28% Assassin 0.28% So what was you saying? And no matter how you look at the picture. Starforge is 720PDPS at high roll, and it`s not worth 30+ exalted, unlike good one handed sword. Whatever statistics you, me, and anyone else put, my points stay. And abyss jewels is accessible to all. |
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" If you can show data on how many of the top xxx players are using 2H / 1H with the bit of context required, by any mean, please show us. " More people are playing Gladiator than Slayers in SC Delve league .... I am taking HC because glass canons are not the balance standard, HC seems much more relevant regarding balance imho. But let's give a look at the top 10 Slayers in SC Delve for eample : - 2 archers - 2 DW - 1 1H + shield - 5 2H ( 2 Starforge, 2 Disfavour, 1 Ngahamu ) So out of this "obviously 2 handers", half of them aren't. ( And there seem to be twice many more gladiator anyway ). 2H are pretty much an insignificant part of the top of the ladder ( not counting archers ), and this is not a coincidence. So no, your points really don't hold much water. It's easier to roll good abyss jewel for one handers, because they will scale better with attack speed with generic mods. Regarding item prices, if I do a very quick search on SC Delve : - Hyaeon's fury is 500 dps, 1 chaos. - Dyadus 500 dps, 1 chaos ( not the full 500 elemental tho, but you can get 450 pure elemental ) - There are unique weapons with 300+ physical dps for a handful chaos, and heaps of phys 300+ dps various weapons for less than 20~30 chaos. And contrarily to starforge, you can scale elemental damage from those weapon, and use stat sticks if you really want to go high dmg, more than with your starforge. And again, crafting has never been as easy with fossils .... SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Nov 29, 2018, 3:20:40 AM
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I'm not so sure that an off-hand item for 2H melee (scabbard, bracer, etc) would be ideal... Since it'd kinda just contribute to the level of power creep. (and would then likely be reacted to with a BUFF to stat sticks and quivers)
Let's also not forget that an attack-focused offhand stat slot would also hurt spellcasters using staves even more. More reasonably? I'd like to see a couple of things done:
Right now 2H melee weapons (whether you're an attacker or caster) are in a really sorry state. Just giving an off-hand like everyone else would do little to distinguish them... I'd rather have them be a distinctive style choice: less variety in mods, yes, but they'd come a hell of a lot stronger. My guides: Summon Homing Missile (SRS) | Act II starter RF | Budget Oro's Flicker Strike
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" I, I was also talking about exotic mods you can add to shields. Mods like those. 68 Socketed Gems have 10% reduced Mana Reservation Shields 80 Socketed Gems have 15% reduced Mana Reservation Shields 68 (9–12)% Chance to Block Spell Damage Shields 75 (12.3–15)% Chance to Block Spell Damage Shields 68 (7–9)% Chance to Block Spell Damage Shields 75 (10–12)% Chance to Block Spell Damage Shields 68 Gain an Endurance, Frenzy or Power charge when you Block Shields 68 (3–5)% chance to Dodge Attack Hits if you have Blocked Recently Shields 68 (25–40)% chance to Chill Attackers for 4 seconds on Block Shields 75 (41–50)% chance to Chill Attackers for 4 seconds on Block Shields 68 (25–40)% chance to Shock Attackers for 4 seconds on Block Shields 75 (41–50)% chance to Shock Attackers for 4 seconds on Block Shields 68 Recover (3–5)% of your Maximum Life when you Block Shields 68 Recover (4–8)% of your maximum Mana when you Block Shields 68 Recover (3–5)% of Energy Shield when you Block Shields 75 +1% to maximum Cold Resistance Shields 80 +2% to maximum Cold Resistance Shields 75 +1% to maximum Lightning Resistance Shields 80 +2% to maximum Lightning Resistance Shields 85 +1% to all maximum Resistances Shields (7–9)% increased Area of Effect Amulets Quivers Shields 75 (10–12)% increased Area of Effect Amulets Quivers Shields 82 (13–15)% increased Area of Effect Amulets Quivers Shields 75 +1% to maximum Fire Resistance Shields 80 +2% to maximum Fire Resistance Shields 68 (3–6)% increased maximum Life Shields 84 (7–10)% increased maximum Life Shields 68 +(500–650) Armour if you've Blocked Recently Shields 75 +(651–800) Armour if you've Blocked Recently Shields 68 1% increased Damage per 1% Chance to Block Attack Damage 83 (3–5)% additional Physical Damage Reduction Amulets Shields 68 Socketed Gems are Supported by Level 5 Cast when Damage Taken Shields 68 +(2–3)% Chance to Block Attack Damage if there are at least 5 nearby Enemies Shields 75 +(4–5)% Chance to Block Attack Damage if there are at least 5 nearby Enemies Shields A 1h user can dedicate his main hand to deal damage wile using his shield to create some pretty interesting and build enabling mods or just buff is defenses. Shields also Got AS and phy damage mods btw so 1h+shield while it does not look like it,raise their dps to average 2h level thks to mods on shields. A dual wield users with with 2nd slot can also create pretty cool builds, not necessary about DPS: The endu charge every 4 sec for example is pretty interesting . 2H melee now, they need to choose on their main weapon to split dps for a cool mod or just forget about those mods and just create a basic dps weapon. 2h melee having Elder/shaper mods dedicaced to them only on their main weapon give them much less build diversity potential than 1+1 users. That is what I tried to convey with my thread, ATM you can create way cooler builds with a bow and a quiver than with a 2h melee since you can add few cool mods on the quiver and not gimp your main dps source. I am also thinking those I also think it would benefit 2h melee staff/2h casters. If those scabbards or whatever it would be called were to be universal for 2h weapons able to roll melee mods and since staff can roll melee mods, we could see 2h casters having cool mods too. " It could be an universal item for 2h axe-swords-mace and staves too. I called it scabbards because I have no idea if there are any similar items for staves IRL. Having spell caster mods on 2h melee 2nd slot could create very cool stuff too so I would love to see staves included in this new type of item. Poe Pvp experience https://youtu.be/Z6eg3aB_V1g?t=302 Last edited by Head_Less#6633 on Nov 29, 2018, 5:12:06 AM
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