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Ignorants gonna be ignorant.
Yeah.. that word doesn't lend itself all too well to that meme.
''Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer.''
IGN: Vaeralyse
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Posted byTagek#6585on Apr 28, 2012, 7:08:23 PM
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"
Kasmos wrote:
I didn't' borrow a term, I borrowed game mechanics. How is arena-style PvP, where there is literally no risk to your characters or items, hardcore?
That's not hardcore. I never said it was. Hardcore has nothing to do with this.
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Kasmos wrote:
I consider hardcore games, games that require choice and where risk is involved. Besides the PvE aspect of hardcore mode in D3, where if you die you're dead for good, what hardcore mechanics are there?
Okay, now you are mixing two types of hardcore.
1) Hardcore gamers are generally those who invest lots of time into a game, usually to achieve some type of reward (whether that be an actual reward in game, or simply improving their own skills).
2) Hardcore play in the ARPG genre is when a character dies, they remain permanently dead and cannot be revived.
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Kasmos wrote:
There's a very large difference. You don't decide in D3 what skills you unlock, the game decides for you.
We're not talking about how skills are unlocked. We're talking about changing builds mid-combat. Not only are you incorrect that Diablo 3 is less "permament", but in Path of Exile skills can be interchanged instantly with no penalty.
In Diablo 3 there are penalties for changing skills. In Normal difficulty, it incurs a 5 second cooldown. In higher difficulties, that cooldown increases to 30 seconds I believe. Once Nephalim Valor is unlocked at level 60, changing skills also removes the Valor buff you receive.
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Kasmos wrote:
All you have to do is find the appropriate PvE build for PvE and you're all set.
This applies to Path of Exile as well. Stop using double-standards.
In addition, this is actually very inaccurate of Diablo 3 because of how the skill system works. All skills are viable, and players don't need to alt-tab to search for the most imba build, unlike Path of Exile.
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Kasmos wrote:
Even one of the community managers at Blizzard said they want your characters to be "imba" in PvP and just have chaotic fun. That's not hardcore, that's casual PvP where there is no risk.
Now you are misconstruing what Zarhym actually said. Here is the quote:
"
We want PvP to be incredibly challenging and fun, but we want to avoid turning it into a truly competitive leagues/ladders eSport. We just don't think Diablo gameplay is very conducive for that type of controlled environment where balance is paramount.
That said, we want to develop PvP as an engaging and rewarding system. What we don't want to do is take a traditional eSports approach to PvP, where balance will become so important to a competitive ranking system that solo and cooperative gameplay feel a bit neutered as a result.
We want your characters to feel totally imba. Then we want you to enter some Arenas, send the scorched remains of other players' corpses flying, and let the satisfaction wash over you -- until your opponents take similar care of your hero, that is. ;)
source: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4662897696?page=2#30
In other words, they don't want to balance PVP at the expense of PVE gameplay. The core of Diablo is PVE. It always has been.
In order to create an E-sport type environment for D3, they would need to balance all the classes to the point of "neutering" the PVE experience.
Again, hardcore has nothing to do with this. They have yet to announce any specifics on the hardcore Arena, so your point is moot.
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Kasmos wrote:
Starcraft 2 is one of the largest e-sport games in the world, and has an incredibly high skill cap. Saying that Blizzard's recent decisions are all made to cater to "casuals and carebears" is simply false.
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Kasmos wrote:
And secondly, I'm not expecting Blizzard to cater their entire game "exclusionary", I'm expecting Blizzard to provide options for their fans (and there are a lot of them) that want hardcore PvP options, at the very LEAST.
Not having a tutorial doesn't make a game hardcore, and I never argued that. Having meaningless PvP with no risk involved makes the PvP aspect of a game not hardcore, and Blizzard has already officially stated they want PvP to be "chaotic and fun" and not worry about balance or make it into an "e-sport" game.
The PVP Arena is still in design phase, and there is no official statement yet about Hardcore Arenas, so there's really no reason to discuss it at this point. As far as E-sports, there are good reasons why D3 won't be an E-sport.
Edit:
I'm sorry if I come off as a Jackass. That is not my intent. But it seems that all of your arguments against D3 simply come from misinformation. If you like Path of Exile more than Diablo 3, that's totally cool, I understand that.
IGN: Sonalia, Arkimond Last edited by Tommerbob#5063 on Apr 28, 2012, 7:27:26 PM
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Posted byTommerbob#5063on Apr 28, 2012, 7:12:46 PM
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Tommerbob nails it again.
Also:
As if POE will ever be an E-Sport...
Not even sure what your point was there Kasmos.
''Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer.''
IGN: Vaeralyse Last edited by Tagek#6585 on Apr 28, 2012, 7:15:51 PM
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Posted byTagek#6585on Apr 28, 2012, 7:15:24 PM
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"
Kasmos wrote:
"
Silver wrote:
There might be some competition between the two games because they are in the same genre, but it's clear, abundantly, that PoE is catering to the hardcore gamers among the fans of the ARPG genre.
Anyways, everyone will have something to look forward to.
This completely. PoE is catering to the hardcore ARPG crowd, and D3 is catering to the PvE/casual crowd.
hardcore ARPG crowd?
You must be joking, there is nothing "hardcore" about this game.
Poe - it's basically a diablo 2.5 without any lore or story, old flawed systems and skill builds similar to d2
Those who wants a game similar to d2 with improved graphics will prefer this.
D3 - new improved game systems with massive builds and choices, massive game and item progression, rich diablo lore and story, complex vibrant environment and monsters
Those who are sick of d2 and wants a completely new and refreshing, vastly improved gaming experience and systems but with the same rich diablo lore, gothic art style and fun ARPG will go for D3.
Last edited by crusio#6286 on Apr 28, 2012, 11:11:04 PM
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Posted bycrusio#6286on Apr 28, 2012, 11:00:48 PM
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"
Tommerbob wrote:
"
Kasmos wrote:
I didn't' borrow a term, I borrowed game mechanics. How is arena-style PvP, where there is literally no risk to your characters or items, hardcore?
That's not hardcore. I never said it was. Hardcore has nothing to do with this.
"
Kasmos wrote:
I consider hardcore games, games that require choice and where risk is involved. Besides the PvE aspect of hardcore mode in D3, where if you die you're dead for good, what hardcore mechanics are there?
Okay, now you are mixing two types of hardcore.
1) Hardcore gamers are generally those who invest lots of time into a game, usually to achieve some type of reward (whether that be an actual reward in game, or simply improving their own skills).
2) Hardcore play in the ARPG genre is when a character dies, they remain permanently dead and cannot be revived.
"
Kasmos wrote:
There's a very large difference. You don't decide in D3 what skills you unlock, the game decides for you.
We're not talking about how skills are unlocked. We're talking about changing builds mid-combat. Not only are you incorrect that Diablo 3 is less "permament", but in Path of Exile skills can be interchanged instantly with no penalty.
In Diablo 3 there are penalties for changing skills. In Normal difficulty, it incurs a 5 second cooldown. In higher difficulties, that cooldown increases to 30 seconds I believe. Once Nephalim Valor is unlocked at level 60, changing skills also removes the Valor buff you receive.
"
Kasmos wrote:
All you have to do is find the appropriate PvE build for PvE and you're all set.
This applies to Path of Exile as well. Stop using double-standards.
In addition, this is actually very inaccurate of Diablo 3 because of how the skill system works. All skills are viable, and players don't need to alt-tab to search for the most imba build, unlike Path of Exile.
"
Kasmos wrote:
Even one of the community managers at Blizzard said they want your characters to be "imba" in PvP and just have chaotic fun. That's not hardcore, that's casual PvP where there is no risk.
Now you are misconstruing what Zarhym actually said. Here is the quote:
"
We want PvP to be incredibly challenging and fun, but we want to avoid turning it into a truly competitive leagues/ladders eSport. We just don't think Diablo gameplay is very conducive for that type of controlled environment where balance is paramount.
That said, we want to develop PvP as an engaging and rewarding system. What we don't want to do is take a traditional eSports approach to PvP, where balance will become so important to a competitive ranking system that solo and cooperative gameplay feel a bit neutered as a result.
We want your characters to feel totally imba. Then we want you to enter some Arenas, send the scorched remains of other players' corpses flying, and let the satisfaction wash over you -- until your opponents take similar care of your hero, that is. ;)
source: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4662897696?page=2#30
In other words, they don't want to balance PVP at the expense of PVE gameplay. The core of Diablo is PVE. It always has been.
In order to create an E-sport type environment for D3, they would need to balance all the classes to the point of "neutering" the PVE experience.
Again, hardcore has nothing to do with this. They have yet to announce any specifics on the hardcore Arena, so your point is moot.
"
Kasmos wrote:
Starcraft 2 is one of the largest e-sport games in the world, and has an incredibly high skill cap. Saying that Blizzard's recent decisions are all made to cater to "casuals and carebears" is simply false.
"
Kasmos wrote:
And secondly, I'm not expecting Blizzard to cater their entire game "exclusionary", I'm expecting Blizzard to provide options for their fans (and there are a lot of them) that want hardcore PvP options, at the very LEAST.
Not having a tutorial doesn't make a game hardcore, and I never argued that. Having meaningless PvP with no risk involved makes the PvP aspect of a game not hardcore, and Blizzard has already officially stated they want PvP to be "chaotic and fun" and not worry about balance or make it into an "e-sport" game.
The PVP Arena is still in design phase, and there is no official statement yet about Hardcore Arenas, so there's really no reason to discuss it at this point. As far as E-sports, there are good reasons why D3 won't be an E-sport.
Edit:
I'm sorry if I come off as a Jackass. That is not my intent. But it seems that all of your arguments against D3 simply come from misinformation. If you like Path of Exile more than Diablo 3, that's totally cool, I understand that.
Finally someone who makes sense.
But it's pointless to argue in a Poe forum.
Even though D3 is at a level of superiority and complexity that poe can never surpass, these players will still think poe is better.
Don't waste your time.
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Posted bycrusio#6286on Apr 28, 2012, 11:04:16 PM
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Crusio.. don't ruin it with your obvious bias.
''Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer.''
IGN: Vaeralyse
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Posted byTagek#6585on Apr 29, 2012, 5:26:03 AM
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Thats one of the reasons this forum makes me sick.
If your a blizzard fan and even remotely interrested in D3(like a LOT of people are) you will be personaly insulted by the huge amount of retarded threads that bash D3 for retarded reasons. There are too few of those kind of threads that actualy make some sense.
It seems PoE fans are more concerned with D3 than with their actual game meanwhile in D3 forums people are actualy discusing their game. I've even recommended PoE to a lot of people on D3 forums, they tried it and we could decently talk about these games. I didn't see any HUGE BOLDED threads in D3 with "OMG DON'T PLAy POE or TORCHLIGHT or anything besides the glorious D3" like I see here and ironicaly a lot you boast with the "PoE is for intelligent people like us" comments.
Also, epicly dumb and insulting statements like "D3 is for skill PoE for intellect" on a previous page here. Very helpfull and open minded community right there.
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Posted bymeggiroth#2350on Apr 29, 2012, 6:54:38 AM
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either your delusional or trolling meggiroth - i'm greatly looking forward to d3 and as such have been on the boards constantly.
admittedly there is little talk of other games, but when it does come up the vast majority are dismissive or downright insulting. i'd be fine if you wanted to post a link to your thread that had such great discussion.
you make it sound like it's NOT an internet forum. people are people and they are acting the same over there as they are here.
Last edited by digibucc#4116 on Apr 29, 2012, 7:41:34 AM
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Posted bydigibucc#4116on Apr 29, 2012, 7:40:56 AM
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meggiroth is right, I saw a lot of this stuff here...
PoE forums ignore list script:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/162657
0.4: added "ignore" button. ignore list is now saved locally.
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Posted bykodr#0209on Apr 29, 2012, 12:09:45 PM
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kodr wrote:
meggiroth is right, I saw a lot of this stuff here...
He's right to some degree, but claiming that the D3 forums are any different is downright ignorant.
''Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer.''
IGN: Vaeralyse
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Posted byTagek#6585on Apr 29, 2012, 12:12:32 PM
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