Can We Get Rid of Death XP Penalties Already? Games Are Supposed to be Fun

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ffogell wrote:

Even most people for the removal of it in this thread arent against having some form of of death penalty

false.

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robmafia wrote:

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ffogell wrote:

Even most people for the removal of it in this thread arent against having some form of of death penalty

false.

Well most of them focus on saying why they want to remove it but lot of them from what I read are open to some form of death penalty , just not convinced that xp is the right solution !

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Johny_Snow wrote:

Does it take away the currency you got during your time? The items you found? The progress you made towards a new gear upgrade which will most definitely give you more than a single skill point? No? But how, I thought that dying meant all your play time was a waste

I think we can all agree that, once you hit 90+ levels (where DP really starts to hurt -- no pun intended), in pure mechanical terms, there are usually much better ways of improving your character than a few more passive points. But that's also the point where most players consider themselves practically "level capped" and start ignoring the DP entirely.

Which, again, begs the question: What purpose does the DP serve?

And hyperbole aside, people's complaints are less about the tangible benefits of a few more skill points, and more about the psychology of taking away their character progress in an ARPG.

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DER_PSYCHOPATH wrote:

Here's an option to change (not reduce) the penalty:

Have people lose a portion of their current progress rather than the total experience required for the next level up. This would of course have to be more than 10% in order to not be an effective reduction.

I remember making a similar (if not the same) suggestion in another DP thread, as a compromise between the current penalty and removing it altogether. But it was never a priority for me to keep it (on average) just as harsh as it is now, because I don't think 10% is a perfectly balanced magical number that needs to be preserved no matter what.

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FirestormHellkite wrote:

As a newcomer to PoE for about 2 months or so now, I can say without a doubt, the number one major turnoff to your game is xp loss on death.

As someone who had quit once due to the XP loss, I feel you. Took me years to find my way back here. I hope it goes better for you.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

You heard it here, folks. The reason PoE is not as successful as it could be is the death penalty.

I don't know how many people quit and/or talk the game down to their friends because of the DP, and neither do you, probably. But claiming the XP loss is holding the game back is no crazier than thinking the grind to 100 is the only thing that keeps people playing this game.

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Dr1MaR wrote:

Games are supposed to be challenging and difficult. That s how all games used to be back in the day. Without that there is no reason to play a game. Easy games that do not punish you for your mistakes are not fun.

how about we delete your account every time you die including everything you purchased for it?

what? you dont like it? stop whining man, games are supposed to be challenging and difficult.

you see where I am going with this? obviously there must be limits to punishing people. you cant just go around and delete accounts because people died. not even the craziest person would be in favor of such an idea, which in itself implies that there MUST BE A LIMIT to getting punished.

we are here to discuss such a limit. that's all. by acting as if you are representing more than a simple opinion, you prevent any kind of meaningful discussion from taking place.

my opinion is that the punishment needs to be less harsh, others have stated that they like the current punishment or even prefer harsher punishments. that's all fine and we are all entitled to have our own opinion, just keep in mind that you are representing nothing more than your own opinion when you talk about stuff like "games need to be challenging" or "top levels should not be for casuals" or "I dont find it fun to lose my progress after death". these are ALL just opinions of specific people. nothing more, nothing less. and we are here stating our different opinions and trying to convince other people.

ultimately it remains ggg's decision and I wouldnt expect them to change anything anytime soon, because they could and would have done so long time ago, if they actually had something in mind.

and reductio ad absurdum joins the fray.

So, to summarize this gigantic thread, there are really two sides to the discussion. Three, if you count the wannabe ogre(s) that somehow get(s) endorphins from harassing people with words on the internet. Three doesn't count, though. Three has to live with who/what it is.

Anyway.

One side has evolved throughout the dialogue. It began with, "Remove the death penalty.". The all or nothing approach is often quite unpopular, simply because of its severity. Some people have stated valid reasons why a death penalty exists. The statements made good points.

The first side has, given these valid statements, modified its suggestion. It now reads like, "Alter the death penalty to be less severe or implement a different mechanic that punishes based on strategic decision making.". Examples include but aren't limited to the following.

1.) Lower the penalty to 5%.

2.) Make the penalty start at 5% but increase as more deaths occur within a given period of time.

3.) Attach the death penalty to the portal system. Perhaps make it incrementally greater each time a portal is consumed to enter the same instance upon death.

4.) Alter the amount of experience gained and/or the amount required to reach the final levels of advancement.

It has also been repeatedly noted, by both sides, that levels after 90 aren't actually that important regarding the success or failure of a build. They are essentially bonus points that give if anything minor QoL boosts. They do not determine the viability of any build.

So, it's not a big deal. Or -- is it?

The second side of the discussion seems to feel it is one of the most profound topics to perhaps ever be discussed. Ever. Removing or altering the death penalty in PoE is an issue of godly magnitude that will ultimately determine the future of the game and who plays it. And hey, that might be true.

This second side, which obviously contains very tough men weathered by grueling real-world experiences, feels that it's critical to ridicule the absolute (censored) out of anyone not fully on their side. People that don't completely agree with them are the enemy and should be destroyed at all costs.

We get it. You've gone out of your way to textually abuse the living (censored) out of the people that don't agree with you. It's a brilliant and proven strategy. We get it. You can (censored) chill the (censored) out now. Your mission is accomplished. In spades.

It's clear that PoE is a big scary game made for big tough individuals. The death penalty is there to abuse and to frustrate an already super abused and ridiculously frustrated mass of hardened veteran gamers. It's not for (and I honestly cringe as I type this) snowflakes. Sarcastically, he typed the paragraph.

The people that want to play and have fun in the later game are spineless (censored) (censored) (censored). Their mice and keyboards should be replaced by feather dusters and, I don't know, more feather dusters maybe. They should dual wield feather dusters. Again, sarcastically.

Thing is...

Stop. Seriously. It doesn't make you look tough, or smart, or strong, or whatever you think it does. It's just childish and lame. State your point, which you have. State valid points supporting your initial point, which you have. And then chill the (censored) out and let whatever happens or doesn't happen -- happen or not happen.

The third side? You should just be banned. Per the rules, not because I actually care about what happens to you. Most people don't. Nor will they ever. Sorry. It sucks. But, what can you do?

inb4 lolwut



But yeah.
Thanks.

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Fruz wrote:

I was just telling you that you are wrong.

(...)

And reaching lvl 90 is not a big deal anymore anyway, and that is a level that allows you to play the game ...

And I am telling you you are wrong, so here we go again...

And I wouldn't exactly call lvl 90 "no big deal". Why is it a challenge about every single league and more important: when do you accomplish it? It's not one of those that earn you the 12-challenges-participation trophy you get for basically play the story and try out the new mechanics a bit. If I play a league, the lvl 90 challenge is usually one of those that earn me the totem pole, so let's say around number 17 or something.

And now take a look at the challenge progression statistics posted by GGG around one month after every league started. Sadly these statistics are posted in a very difficult to read manner, but just from looking at the graphics you see what small percentage of the players has 17 or more challenges. This gives you an impression about the percentage of players getting to level 90 per league. (Delve: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2227437)

Sure, to the determined player lvl 90 is not gated behind any hard wall, but it is something most players don't reach. Looking at these challenge progression statistics tells you a lot about player retention respectivelly driving players away. 1,47% having 24 challenges...are endless grinding and frustrating setbacks really doing GGG a favour?

In his 2017 retrospective, Chris Wilson mentioned 4,6 million players played POE on international realm that year (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2063122). The standard ladder shows 11.678 characters (not player accounts!) with level 98 or higher (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/71278). So much about the supposed great success of the current system, so much about annoying players into quitting or starting new characers after reaching 80-ish levels.

Elitism drives the masses away, big surprise...

What I would like is to use a league or a one month race and totally remove it /make adjustment and look at the stats and then adjust/dont change anything! You could see how it affect the retention duriong the league/race.

Anyway in the end its something they will address probably only if it affects their retention/incomes, if not I doubt its a priority.

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charliemim wrote:

They should dual wield feather dusters.

I prefer 2H because I'm a hipster.

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charliemim wrote:

Examples include but aren't limited to the following.

1.) Lower the penalty to 5%.

2.) Make the penalty start at 5% but increase as more deaths occur within a given period of time.

3.) Attach the death penalty to the portal system. Perhaps make it incrementally greater each time a portal is consumed to enter the same instance upon death.

4.) Alter the amount of experience gained and/or the amount required to reach the final levels of advancement.

It has also been repeatedly noted, by both sides, that levels after 90 aren't actually that important regarding the success or failure of a build. They are essentially bonus points that give if anything minor QoL boosts. They do not determine the viability of any build.

So, it's not a big deal. Or -- is it?

Please don't forget a grumpy old man cutting soulstones since 1998 ;-) and his old but extremely relevant ceterum censeo: Diablo 1 had no fucking death penalty aside from making you try again. It was a great game, a groundbreaking commercial and artistical success that defined a whole genre, and it had way more tactical depth than POE. Diablo 1 proved everybody wrong who claims that XP loss was necessary for quality, player retention or commercial success. And it did so two decades ago. Day after day after day I'm amazed by GGG forgetting historical solutions for modern day problems.
The admitted downside: D1's savegame system only works for single player. But with a large and prospering SSF community, and my suggestion for a "solo with trade" league this would probably affect only a minority.

And about the "unnecessary" last levels - those points are just what you need to add a whole additional aspect to your build, like a DOT component to your elemental archer, or totems or curse efficency or whatever.