[3.3] Manacrank; Xirgil's Crank Indigon Ball Lightning Occultist

I'm currently working on getting a l4 Empower and the amazingly powerful mana regen boot enchant. I'll get you guys some more accurate damage numbers and make an up to date PoB once I do.

I do think PoB accounts for cast rate but not for hit rate of already cast ball lightning nor the area/speed ratio that determines how long each ball gets to stay in range. The helm enchant would probably greatly improve dps trough that.

My guess would be something in between 1 and 3 million, in contrast to the dps in between 10 and 20 million of the Gloomfang Mana Hierophant.

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Tarvalon2 wrote:

Path of Building already accounts for cast rate, so in your ideal scenario, you still need to divide your damage by 5. Like you mentioned, the ramp takes a while to get close to the numbers we're listing, so let's divide that in half again for closer to actual DPS. Lastly, in order for ball lightning to stay in range for 2 seconds, you can't really miss and the enemy needs to remain stationary, correct? So when you're assuming 10 hits per cast, I think a more realistic number is likely between 3 and 6 hits. Let's say 5 to go on the high side, so divide in half again. This leaves us with a total of 7.5 million / 5 / 2 / 5 = 150,000 DPS, or 300,000 for casting over a 2-second span.

It accounts for cast rate - but that does not include how often one casted Ball Lightning hits on its own. (I made a mistake here though in my inital calculation! I thought when you mentioned the 150k you were talkinga bout its Hit - not its DPS. My bad!)

Dunno about the Missing - Since the AI of mobs/bosses pretty much consists of either scripted behaviour or 'running at you like a bull' its kinda hard not to hit.

The AoE is also pretty big on Ball Lightning. 10 Hits per cast feel like its a bit of a low number already when it comes to Ball Lightning.
But sure - if you want to lower that its fine too.

I am not quite sure I can follow your Math:

You have the ~50k Hit - taken your number it hits only 5 Times (between 3 and 6) thats still 250k Damage from one Ball Lightning over its duration. That Duration being 2 Seconds. (If I understood your number of 3 - 6 hits right? Which is really to low. Ball Lightning certainly hits a lot more often the 3 times.)

In two seconds you can cast 7 Ball Lightnings. thats 250k * 7 = 1.75 Mio Damage over a 2-second span.

Even taken the ramping time into account thats propably a good bit over a Million Damage. And If you can cast for a tad longer the Damage goes up exponentionally due to Indigon stacking longer etc.

About Uber Elder:

I am not sure if you have done the encounter a lot? But if you do you should know that having Damage isnt the issue with it.
One problem is that there are two Healthbars - with them being invulnerable multiple times during the fight. You can have as much DPS as you want - those phases wont be any quicker no matter what you do.
The other problem is that the DamageOutput from the Boss is not tankable even by RF builds. You *need* to dodge and play the encounter correctly. And by its very nature this encounter doesnt leave many openings to deal Damage. Which in turn limits the time you can bring your (hopefully!) high Damage to bear.

I did some calculations:

*With my current gear and skill tree there is practically no difference between L4 Empower and Elemental Focus, but I like shocking once every now and then so I'll get the Empower eventually anyways.

*Without regen enchant on boots I regen ~500 mana per second and with the boots ~750 mana per second. Mana leech should be between 750 and 1000 mana per second. This and 3300 unreserved mana should allow for ~2000% increase after 10 seconds or a bit more than that.

*10 seconds is a bit much, so I might have to think about the mana cost a bit. I don't like wasting sockets on an aura totem.

*2000% increase gives me ~150000 base dps

*My Ball lightning strikes 5/s, travels 25 units per second and has a radius of 25 units, giving dps of 150k/s * 5/s * (25u + 25u)/25u = 1,5M/s. Pretty much what I'd expect though not the >2M I was hoping for.

Thanks again! Getting a clearer picture with each post :)

Note: Had this written up before thegagis' post (internet issues caused it to not post earlier), posting as-is but adding some additional comments at the end.

Going back to PoB, the Average Hit damage is 44,274.2 from the pastebin you posted, I'll work up from there instead of down from your numbers, which should make this easier to follow. However, we've already conceded that we should cut this number in half since Indigon takes a while to ramp. So base hit damage = 22,137.1.

I haven't used Ball Lightning much, so if 10 hits is the right number, happy to go with that. It just seemed optimistic since you mentioned the ball stays in range for 1 target for 2 seconds, which makes it sound like the max hits would be 10 for a single ball. If the enemy moves, or you click to the side of the enemy, or anything like that, I would expect the number to be lower. I probably mis-understood what you were getting at though, and did some research since then. With lvl 20 slower projectiles, the max number of hits from a single cast is 15 when the enemy is in the perfect position and doesn't move. So, I'm comfortable with 10 as a baseline # hits / cast. As you mentioned, we can cast 7 balls in 2 seconds under ideal circumstances (not moving, just pure casting ball lightning).

As I understand, DPS should be base per hit damage * # hits / cast * # balls in play (after 2 seconds, we're ramping up # balls for the first 2 secs). So 22,137.1 * 10 * 7 = 1,549,597 which gets us over 1M DPS (not millions, but I'm at least getting over 1M now).

So our ideal DPS is 1.5M when we can just stand still and cast.

Re: Uber Elder, I'm quite familiar with it but can't say I've played the encounter a lot (have played and beaten the fight multiple times though, and watched a lot of tutorials prior to that to be sure I knew what I was in for). I completely understand your point, you can't just sit there and DPS both bosses down while tanking things, just doesn't work. There's a lot of movement, positioning and dodging that goes on. That's kind of my point here though - your DPS in that fight is definitely not in the millions or else both bosses would die a lot faster. Even during some of the times that you were able to cast a lot in a short span (Ex: 0:55 - 1:04), you were only casting ~ 2 balls per second (20 balls cast over that 10 second span). Since this doesn't give you much time at all to ramp Indigon, the Indigon bonus is pretty low (but it does pick up in the last ~5 seconds of that span) and the # balls in play is much lower than in our calcs. This is giving you a boss DPS even lower than the 1.5M I calculated above.

Again, I'm not trying to say this is a bad build, but I don't agree that this build can deal 'millions of DPS' during boss fights, which is the stated purpose for the build. It looks to me like the actual DPS is significantly lower during boss fights, likely around the ~500k range (but that's admittedly a guesstimate based on details above).

Do I have this wrong? I'm just not seeing the numbers you're posting, but would love to be proven wrong here! I like the idea behind the build and want to make this work, but currently it just seems the numbers are all based on 'ideal' circumstances rather than practical applications.

RE: thegagis' post - we're getting to the same 1.5M number under ideal circumstances, albeit in different ways. I'm comfortable with that number being the ceiling but still believe actual DPS is much lower here. We've got to ramp Indigon much more quickly for this setup to be worth it.

Take a look at this setup - I was able to up the average hit to 58k (from 44) mostly by swapping out Arcane Surge for Lightning Pen and slotted in 1 Fevered Mind. My thought is to keep Arcane Surge either with the new caster version of Tombfist or via a very lengthy Immortal Call on switch - Immortal Call, Inc. Duration, Efficacy, Arcane Surge, Faster Casting, any other support if you have a 6th. Arcane Surge ends up gaining the inc. duration per endurance charge spent via IC in this setup, and since we generate end. charges, we can get a 30+ second arcane surge on switch. In addition, I pathed down to the Marauder area to really take advantage of The Red Nightmare and also pick up a bunch of res, which let me drop some other nodes. I'm down to 70/70 block atm so this isn't finished yet - if we go with the new tombfist gloves, can get 4% block instead of 2% via abyss jewels along with some other juicy stats. Still need to find 3% more block though, probably via an amulet corruption.

PoB: https://pastebin.com/HmiZKfN9

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Tarvalon2 wrote:

Spoiler

Thanks again! Getting a clearer picture with each post :)

Note: Had this written up before thegagis' post (internet issues caused it to not post earlier), posting as-is but adding some additional comments at the end.

Going back to PoB, the Average Hit damage is 44,274.2 from the pastebin you posted, I'll work up from there instead of down from your numbers, which should make this easier to follow. However, we've already conceded that we should cut this number in half since Indigon takes a while to ramp. So base hit damage = 22,137.1.

I haven't used Ball Lightning much, so if 10 hits is the right number, happy to go with that. It just seemed optimistic since you mentioned the ball stays in range for 1 target for 2 seconds, which makes it sound like the max hits would be 10 for a single ball. If the enemy moves, or you click to the side of the enemy, or anything like that, I would expect the number to be lower. I probably mis-understood what you were getting at though, and did some research since then. With lvl 20 slower projectiles, the max number of hits from a single cast is 15 when the enemy is in the perfect position and doesn't move. So, I'm comfortable with 10 as a baseline # hits / cast. As you mentioned, we can cast 7 balls in 2 seconds under ideal circumstances (not moving, just pure casting ball lightning).

As I understand, DPS should be base per hit damage * # hits / cast * # balls in play (after 2 seconds, we're ramping up # balls for the first 2 secs). So 22,137.1 * 10 * 7 = 1,549,597 which gets us over 1M DPS (not millions, but I'm at least getting over 1M now).

So our ideal DPS is 1.5M when we can just stand still and cast.

Re: Uber Elder, I'm quite familiar with it but can't say I've played the encounter a lot (have played and beaten the fight multiple times though, and watched a lot of tutorials prior to that to be sure I knew what I was in for). I completely understand your point, you can't just sit there and DPS both bosses down while tanking things, just doesn't work. There's a lot of movement, positioning and dodging that goes on. That's kind of my point here though - your DPS in that fight is definitely not in the millions or else both bosses would die a lot faster. Even during some of the times that you were able to cast a lot in a short span (Ex: 0:55 - 1:04), you were only casting ~ 2 balls per second (20 balls cast over that 10 second span). Since this doesn't give you much time at all to ramp Indigon, the Indigon bonus is pretty low (but it does pick up in the last ~5 seconds of that span) and the # balls in play is much lower than in our calcs. This is giving you a boss DPS even lower than the 1.5M I calculated above.

Again, I'm not trying to say this is a bad build, but I don't agree that this build can deal 'millions of DPS' during boss fights, which is the stated purpose for the build. It looks to me like the actual DPS is significantly lower during boss fights, likely around the ~500k range (but that's admittedly a guesstimate based on details above).

Do I have this wrong? I'm just not seeing the numbers you're posting, but would love to be proven wrong here! I like the idea behind the build and want to make this work, but currently it just seems the numbers are all based on 'ideal' circumstances rather than practical applications.

RE: thegagis' post - we're getting to the same 1.5M number under ideal circumstances, albeit in different ways. I'm comfortable with that number being the ceiling but still believe actual DPS is much lower here. We've got to ramp Indigon much more quickly for this setup to be worth it.

Take a look at this setup - I was able to up the average hit to 58k (from 44) mostly by swapping out Arcane Surge for Lightning Pen and slotted in 1 Fevered Mind. My thought is to keep Arcane Surge either with the new caster version of Tombfist or via a very lengthy Immortal Call on switch - Immortal Call, Inc. Duration, Efficacy, Arcane Surge, Faster Casting, any other support if you have a 6th. Arcane Surge ends up gaining the inc. duration per endurance charge spent via IC in this setup, and since we generate end. charges, we can get a 30+ second arcane surge on switch. In addition, I pathed down to the Marauder area to really take advantage of The Red Nightmare and also pick up a bunch of res, which let me drop some other nodes. I'm down to 70/70 block atm so this isn't finished yet - if we go with the new tombfist gloves, can get 4% block instead of 2% via abyss jewels along with some other juicy stats. Still need to find 3% more block though, probably via an amulet corruption.

PoB: https://pastebin.com/HmiZKfN9

Great Post!

Yeah - you are absolutly correct that you can't cast a lot in the UberElder fight. Its a consistent argument between Gagis and me. :P

I always argue for getting more base Damage going and not investing to heavily into Mana - and just *dipping* into Indigon for some added benefits. (check out my build over there: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2190157) :P Gagis likes to put in as much Value as he can in form of jewels and talents to get the most out of Indigon - he basically builds around it.

Some things to take into consideration: When you dont cast Ball Lightning one tends to cast Lightning Warp or in general another ability. I think while you dont max out your stacks in those movement/downtime phases one does still maintain a couple of stacks from Indigon (GGG should really put a buff counter in for it) which would scew the damage numbers in the builds favour.

The other thing is that the UberElder is a worst case for this build - one usually can cast/ramp a bit longer then in that fight. I personally calculate most things around the 3 to 4 second mark when it comes to indigon rampage. If Indigon is able to ramp in that timeframe *and* uses up the available mana I have I consider it to be perfect. Everything more feels a bit like Tooltip Warrior-ing.

I'll leave the PoB you posted for Gagis. My Gut tells me you had to compromise BlockChance for the fevered Mind but I didnt really check - I am also not quite familiar enough with all the mechanics to go bananas over it. Gagis is way more qualified then me to talk about those things regarding the build.

Good point re: movement skill keeping stacks up, I hadn't considered that. The additional Fevered Mind feels like the right way to get the ramp going faster - the base mana cost starts at 240+ with a single Fevered Mind rather than 130 without. If we can quickly build up ~10 stacks without an aura totem, that would be ideal.

Thanks for the link to your build! Definitely interesting and one I'll be playing around with in PoB :)

RIP

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Tarvalon2 wrote:

RIP

It was good while it lasted.

Did some testing in PoB. This guide will not be updated for 3.4.

Just six linked a Xirgil's Crank for this... Feels bad man. Thanks for the great build while it lasted

RIP to a great unique.