Dear animal lovers.
" I'm not offended, nor are trying to force anything. You, otoh sound mighty pissed... I'm just debating and trying to explain a point of view. " No, I never said YOU were a sociopath. Just that clubbing toddlers in a video game and not feeling anything might be a sign of sociopathy, in general. I'm trying to counter the argument that "it's just pixels, therefore everything is fine". Obviously it's not and people get bothered by various things that conflict with their morals or their perception from RL. " The difference between animals and criminals, is that criminals have a free will to act badly and a multitude of choices to not act badly. Or are you suggesting that robbers rob a bank because of their instincts and can't help themselves? We keep sociopaths and lions separated from the rest of the civil society. We punish sociopaths only if they committed a crime, but we don't punish lions, even if they committed what could be considered a crime. Because we expect lions to eat people (lions can't help their nature and can't be reasoned with), but we don't expect people to eat people. None of you would treat a dog and a mugger the same way. You would never attribute the same intent of malice and harm, to a stray dog that bit you "for no reason", the same way as you'd do it to a mugger that threatened to stab you unless you give him your wallet. Don't tell me you'd treat these two sources of harm the same way, because "people are just animals and have instincts too". When night falls
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" You seem to have very faint understanding what free will is. It doesn't mean you can chose to feel what you want to feel, or like/dislike certain things by using your free will. You are defined by many things, including genes or the enviroment you've lived in. Many of those things are roll of a dice - you don't CHOSE using your free will to be bullied in school only to end up being shy and social anckward as an adult. You don't chose to be have mental disorder. You don't chose to be an orphan. All of those things affect the way you feel about different things in life and how you deal with them. You can't just *boop* free will, done them. If you want to disagree so much, I guess you never saw anyone under influence of any type of drug. Why are people acting different? Doesn't they have free will that allows them to do exactly whatever they want? In your perfect world everyone have ability to do (and not do) whatever they want because free will. That isn't true in the slightest. For the very same reason many people are limited in what they feel like is evil. Many people lived in shitholes their whole lives and even the concept of something being bad or evil in completly non-existant. What you are suggesting is that we shouldn't take that into consideration (let alone feeling for them living in shitholes) and punish them because... they have free will? Not to mention that you seem to not understand that punishment is usually prison, and with that in most cases comes the intent of resocialization. Why would you want to try and show someone the right way? Shouldn't they have their free will to know that? Why do we even need psychology? So yes - people robbing banks or doing any other kind of stealing doesn't feel like they are doing wrong. They were born like this and shaped by their enviroment to be like this. The very same way lions are born to do what lions do. The only difference is that you don't even try to argue with lion but instead expect them to act certain ways. Or because they have cudly, sweet faces and your emotional reaction tells you to act ceratain way. Oh, wait, doesn't this mean you cannot change the way you feel because you lack free will? Other than that, what Xavathos said. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. Last edited by Perq#4049 on Mar 1, 2018, 5:16:42 AM
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" Free will means that you can choose to act upon your feelings and instincts, or not to act. A person's instincts might tell him he'd like to rape some woman, even tho he knows that's a crime. How he'll act on these instincts, will determine if he's a rapist or not. Being born stupid or horny has never been an excuse, as long as a person is not so mentally handicapped to not understand basic laws and civil norms. (those people are usually already locked up or in some special care) " That person had free will before he got drugged up, and could choose not to get drugged. Being drunk or drugged is not a mitigating factor, on the contrary - it will only add to the charges if you commit a crime under influence. That's because society recognizes that you have a free will to not get drugged. You guys seem to suggest a society where people should be treated more like animals and be excused from bad behavior, because of some mitigating factors, that might have a connection to some act or might not. "he grew up poor, so he doesn't know not to steal" - this is the opposite of a civilized society and is treating humans like some kind of stupid animals, unable to reason basic principles. When night falls She cloaks the world In impenetrable darkness Last edited by morbo#1824 on Mar 1, 2018, 6:02:23 AM
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" Doesnt seem like that. You need to claryfie that in the begining not in the end. |
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" ^Sociopaths and the like are created by a necessity from their environment. Just like most things in nature, it responds to a need for life/existence without subjectively giving a fuck if that need is met. And why do we need them? Because society is structured in a way where we need people to full-fill roles which some consider inhumane. So a desire for people with egoistic self-centered behavior is nurtured that lack empathy and are capable of coping themselves with the mental repercussions of those roles. Just take a look at how the working industry handles it people? It promotes stabbing people in the back to get higher up, it promotes overall profit at the cost of others etc.(a generalization, obviously, but to make a point how people are conditioned) I once heard a story about an african girl needing to walk twenty miles for water every single day, having a harsh life and enduring it and i thought to myself
Spoiler
She should move
Of course people have free-will to play with the cards they are given, god damn i can only imagine how stupid my life would be if i actually did every little thing that popped in my mind. I don't think anybody so far has claimed that utilizing free-will is an easy task, specially in todays society that thrives on destroying people's ability to focus. Which is a necessary skill for reflection and contemplation and then maintaining the direction you move your will towards. " I've been around the block on these forums for five years, don't worry bro i'm not made of glass and i'm not offended or break easily. I've had threads of 40 pages and up where i debate against the whole community on certain topics without anybody agreeing with me etc, doesn't bother me one bit.(for example status immunity introduction with atziri and the danger of that implementation in relation to the future of the game, which ultimately resulted in immunity's on certain guardians and was eventually removed) Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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" I don't speak up for you because I think you need help, I do so because I think it's childish and completely unnecessary. Also it only works against them and the weight of their arguments when they disrespect the other party. Like you said, you've been around, and I've been around with you. Hopefully for many more years to come, bro. :) Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done.
Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. |
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" Are you suggesting that being threated like an animal is a bad thing? What does it mean? Why animals should be excused from bad behavior and people should not? Why do you put animals onto pedestal, when they are the ones that cannot reason basic principles? Stupid animals? Your own logic collapsed on your head. People are animals - far more complicated ones, but still flawed and fragile. Even more so when we try to convince ourselves that we're over being animals. Whenever you pick to be the punisher and punish any human that does anything bad or try being considerate (aka, empathetic) is up to you. But when you pick one, stick to it for everyone instead of pick sides of cute animals and dirty humans. That said, this doesn't matter at all if you're playing a video game about mowing living things for experience and loot. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. Last edited by Perq#4049 on Mar 1, 2018, 6:54:07 AM
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" Society on a macro scale does consider humans above animals. Which is why we regulate human behavior and pretty much ignore animals as a whole on a macro scale. As far as i know, humans distinct themselves by the act of contemplation or observing conscientiousness. It seems unreasonable to expect socially and morally correct decisions from animals incapable of this act which justify's, morally, behavior based on fundamental actors(instinct) to exhibit behavior or prolonged conditioning resulting in pattern behavior. Humans have all the same actors in play as animals (instinct, patterned conditioning) but also have the ability to contentiously govern those actors and attribute relevance and power to each of them.(willpower to over-rule fundamental drives) This makes people liable for their actions where animals are not. (Not ignoring the fact, we are also fundamentally animals but have gained the ability to not move based on pattern/instinct behavior alone) At least, that's how i would make the distinction. I don't consider one better then the other either, each type of life seems filled with it's own set of hardships. And to be clear, everybody experiences subjective hardships, sadness and pain. From the richest and most fortunate human being on this planet to the most horrible places on earth. And subjective experience allows empathy to overcome that material gap if propagated properly. You speak as if the people living a "hard" live are only found in though conditions, when reality paints a different picture. I've spoken with rich people in my life that where subjectively "suffering" in their life and felt terror and i've spoken with people who weren't well off materialistically speaking that loved their life and where generally content. Only you govern how you create/manipulate and indulge your brain and how it will respond as a result of that. Everybody is perfectly capable to utilize free-will to remove himself from an environment not conductive to a happy life. At the same time, change or transformation requires sacrifice and people are thought so much today that we live in a world that "should be devoid of pain", a ludicrous notion to anybody who actually walked around a bit and talked to people. I enjoyed writing that, not sure if applicable since i went on a tangent, but still. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Well, I never said that people with good lives face no hardships. :P On that, I fully agree.
My point is that some people overestimate their own ability to overcome who they are (broadly speaking). Therefore, in a way, we still act like animals. But on different levels, as you mentioned. Will-power might be an illusion. In fact you can simply argue that your will-power is an instinct. I'm not knowledgable enough in that field, so I won't go any further with this, so lets get back to the original point: Killing animals in video game has nothing to do with being sociopath in real life. Killing human/children/whatever does not mean you're a sociopath. All of this requires context and intent behind it. PoE is about mowing stuff down for exp and loot. Does anyone question motives of anything that he kills? Be it animals or simple soldiers who maybe have been ordered to fight you (by means of black-mail, for example?). Of course not. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. | |
" For the same reason why children are excused for bad behavior and minors have more lenient sentencing, than adults. Because they are not yet fully developed mentally and physically, thus we don't put the same rigor on them as we do on adults. You expect dogs and children to shit everywhere, you don't expect it from adults. Animals and kids ARE stupid in comparison, so no, my logic didn't collapse. I expect adults to be held to a higher standard, overcoming their bad instincts, because they have the capacity to decide (= free will) and reason (= higher intelligence). " I did not say that animals are by default "cute" and humans by default "dirty". I said that you cannot attribute the same intent of actions to animals (and kids) as you do to adult humans. I'm not putting animal "on a pedestal", but expecting a higher standard from adult humans. eg: There is a huge difference in how would you react if a dog or kid pissed on your pants vs how would you react if a grown up man did it. You would not attribute malicious intent to the kid or the dog, but you would do it for the adult. The same action done by a kid or an animal can be innocent, while its not innocent if done by a human adult. It's too simplistic to say that "people are animals". That might be biologically true, but the capacity for reasoning, control and free will of humans, go so far beyond any animal, that you might as well put the two in different categories. So called "animalistic behaviour", putting your feelings and instincts before reason and logic, is anti-societal and anti-social. eg, if all men let go their animalistic "lizard brain", all women would get raped in an instant. When night falls
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