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Shppy wrote:
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pijanapanda wrote:
Harness of the void prepare your anus, nerf hammer incoming.
They released this and don't notice double/triple/whatever diping potencial? Seriously???
The hell are you talking about, it's %non-chaos damage as added chaos. It can't double/triple dip off itself.
better put you're benefitting from every conversion
Ie if you deal 100 damage with 100% of it being cold and have 50% added as chaos you'll deal 150 total
But if you deal 100 damage as same cold but now converted to 100% fire for total of 100 fire damage, you'll deal 200 total now,100 being from chaos
So youd earn (50%)*(n+1) as chaos where n is number of full conversions. Something like ek can be converted 3 times (physical to light, light to cold, cold to fire) for a total of 200% added as chaos without any additive shaper sticks auras etc, just off conversion (not even counting cold to fire bonus added as)
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Posted bygrepman#2451on Feb 26, 2018, 1:43:34 PM
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I don't understand the theorycrafting behind the conversions applying more than one, isn't the entire point of the calculation that it goes phys>lightning>cold>fire>chaos, so my assumption was that its just the values before chaos totalled then the added as chaos applied ontop of it, so if you have 100 cold with full conversion to fire it just goes
100 cold > 100 fire > 100 fire + 45 chaos (using the 45% more value mentioned earlier)
whereas the thinking from others seems to be that it goes
100 cold + 45 chaos > 100 fire + 45 chaos for 100 fire + 90 chaos total which just seems like a really fruity way to do it, isn't the entire point of the "non-chaos damage" mod to be that it can go last?
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Posted byDraegnarrr#2823on Feb 26, 2018, 1:48:56 PM
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"Non-Chaos" damage means all damage that is not Chaos. You don't get [X]% of Physical damage as Chaos, then [X]% of Fire damage again as Chaos after the Physical part is done with a 100% Fire conversion build.
The Occultist has the same 'non-chaos as Chaos' buff. It doesn't draw up every conversion you've ever made, it does its thing based on your final damage number.
She/Her
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Posted by1453R#7804on Feb 26, 2018, 1:55:33 PM
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MBata wrote:
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Aalzien wrote:
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I am guessing here that those three are mutually exclusive, and once one of them fires the remaining cannot fire, ie:
20% to gain 50% extra chaos
......IF it does NOT fire then --> 15% to gain 100% extra chaos
............IF it does NOT fire then --> 10% to gain 200% extra chaos
Becuase it all three are not dependant from each other .... jeebus! that would be broken.
I don't think you're right.
Those separators are usually *AND* statements not *ELSE* statements.
It could even be that it was a *THEN* separator.
In other words:
80% chance of nothing.
20% chance of 50% added chaos, then if this condition is met, you also have 15% chance of 100%, then if that condition is met you also have a 10% chance of 200%.
I think that would make it:
[0.2*(1+0.5)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)*0.1*(1+2)]= 42% added.
Id like some clarity here too.
I cant imagine they stack, but I could see them being derivative as the above example.
I could also see them being a single check and mutually exclusive. IE 45% of the time you get some sort of bonus.
BEX-any clarity?
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1453R wrote:
"Non-Chaos" damage means all damage that is not Chaos. You don't get [X]% of Physical damage as Chaos, then [X]% of Fire damage again as Chaos after the Physical part is done with a 100% Fire conversion build.
The Occultist has the same 'non-chaos as Chaos' buff. It doesn't draw up every conversion you've ever made, it does its thing based on your final damage number.
Wide-spread misinformation being posted on reddit forums then ever since this ascendancy dropped.
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Posted byJazzBear#0202on Feb 26, 2018, 1:59:18 PM
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MBata wrote:
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Aalzien wrote:
.
I am guessing here that those three are mutually exclusive, and once one of them fires the remaining cannot fire, ie:
20% to gain 50% extra chaos
......IF it does NOT fire then --> 15% to gain 100% extra chaos
............IF it does NOT fire then --> 10% to gain 200% extra chaos
Becuase it all three are not dependant from each other .... jeebus! that would be broken.
I don't think you're right.
Those separators are usually *AND* statements not *ELSE* statements.
It could even be that it was a *THEN* separator.
In other words:
80% chance of nothing.
20% chance of 50% added chaos, then if this condition is met, you also have 15% chance of 100%, then if that condition is met you also have a 10% chance of 200%.
I think that would make it:
[0.2*(1+0.5)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)*0.1*(1+2)]= 42% added.
The cleanest way is to just go through all the possible cases and weigh the damage with the probability of it occuring.
Nothing triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0) = 0.612
Only #1 triggers: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5) = 0.2295
Only #2 triggers: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 1) = 0.216
Only #3 triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 2) = 0.204
#1 and #2 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 1) = 0.0675
#1 and #3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 2) = 0.0595
#2 and #3 trigger: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 1 + 2) = 0.048
All 3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 1 + 2) = 0.0135
Add them all up and you get exactly 1.45, so 45% more damage on average.
Mind you, the chance of all 3 triggering is 0.3%, so in practice you'll probably see less because the really high damage spikes never trigger.
Last edited by suszterpatt#5078 on Feb 26, 2018, 2:09:43 PM
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Posted bysuszterpatt#5078on Feb 26, 2018, 2:09:31 PM
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On a related note, the entire concept of Harness the Void is kind of at odds with the whole poison identity. A lot of the base damage from poison comes from flat added chaos damage (Added Chaos/Lesser Poison, +chaos craft on rings, etc) which won't benefit from it.
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Posted bysuszterpatt#5078on Feb 26, 2018, 2:13:31 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
"
MBata wrote:
"
Aalzien wrote:
.
I am guessing here that those three are mutually exclusive, and once one of them fires the remaining cannot fire, ie:
20% to gain 50% extra chaos
......IF it does NOT fire then --> 15% to gain 100% extra chaos
............IF it does NOT fire then --> 10% to gain 200% extra chaos
Becuase it all three are not dependant from each other .... jeebus! that would be broken.
I don't think you're right.
Those separators are usually *AND* statements not *ELSE* statements.
It could even be that it was a *THEN* separator.
In other words:
80% chance of nothing.
20% chance of 50% added chaos, then if this condition is met, you also have 15% chance of 100%, then if that condition is met you also have a 10% chance of 200%.
I think that would make it:
[0.2*(1+0.5)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)*0.1*(1+2)]= 42% added.
The cleanest way is to just go through all the possible cases and weigh the damage with the probability of it occuring.
Nothing triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0) = 0.612
Only #1 triggers: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5) = 0.2295
Only #2 triggers: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 1) = 0.216
Only #3 triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 2) = 0.204
#1 and #2 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 1) = 0.0675
#1 and #3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 2) = 0.0595
#2 and #3 trigger: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 1 + 2) = 0.048
All 3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 1 + 2) = 0.0135
Add them all up and you get exactly 1.45, so 45% more damage on average.
Mind you, the chance of all 3 triggering is 0.3%, so in practice you'll probably see less because the really high damage spikes never trigger.
Thanks for the math. 45% more damage on average is absolutely strong.
IGN: Arlianth
Check out my LA build: 1782214
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Posted byNephalim#2731on Feb 26, 2018, 2:14:07 PM
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1453R wrote:
"Non-Chaos" damage means all damage that is not Chaos. You don't get [X]% of Physical damage as Chaos, then [X]% of Fire damage again as Chaos after the Physical part is done with a 100% Fire conversion build.
The Occultist has the same 'non-chaos as Chaos' buff. It doesn't draw up every conversion you've ever made, it does its thing based on your final damage number.
well, it definitely works that way as "elemental damage added as chaos"
I can use this thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/6zb8or/30_hsc_chaos_glacial_cascade_vs_shaper/dmtxmpi
as evidence or pob
Now, question is if non-chaos is treated as elemental here as well
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Posted bygrepman#2451on Feb 26, 2018, 2:15:21 PM
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suszterpatt wrote:
"
MBata wrote:
"
Aalzien wrote:
.
I am guessing here that those three are mutually exclusive, and once one of them fires the remaining cannot fire, ie:
20% to gain 50% extra chaos
......IF it does NOT fire then --> 15% to gain 100% extra chaos
............IF it does NOT fire then --> 10% to gain 200% extra chaos
Becuase it all three are not dependant from each other .... jeebus! that would be broken.
I don't think you're right.
Those separators are usually *AND* statements not *ELSE* statements.
It could even be that it was a *THEN* separator.
In other words:
80% chance of nothing.
20% chance of 50% added chaos, then if this condition is met, you also have 15% chance of 100%, then if that condition is met you also have a 10% chance of 200%.
I think that would make it:
[0.2*(1+0.5)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)] + [0.2*(1+0.5)*0.15*(1+1)*0.1*(1+2)]= 42% added.
The cleanest way is to just go through all the possible cases and weigh the damage with the probability of it occuring.
Nothing triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0) = 0.612
Only #1 triggers: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5) = 0.2295
Only #2 triggers: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 1) = 0.216
Only #3 triggers: 0.8 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 2) = 0.204
#1 and #2 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 1) = 0.0675
#1 and #3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.85 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 2) = 0.0595
#2 and #3 trigger: 0.8 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 1 + 2) = 0.048
All 3 trigger: 0.2 * 0.15 * 0.1 * (1 + 0.5 + 1 + 2) = 0.0135
Add them all up and you get exactly 1.45, so 45% more damage on average.
Mind you, the chance of all 3 triggering is 0.3%, so in practice you'll probably see less because the really high damage spikes never trigger.
What if the chances are mutually exclusive?
Upon hit- random a number 1-100
1-20=50%
21-35= 100%
36-45= 200%
46-100= No bonus
Lots of ways to interpret the mechanic which is why I think we need some clarity from Bex and the team.
Its going to be strong no matter how it lands but it will be important to understand that math.
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