Let's talk about endgame. GGG, this concerns you too.

I like the idea of Boss only experience, but from level 85 and on like that:

lv 85 You get XP from all map bosses
lv86 From tier 2 and up

etc.

By the time you are level 95 only red map bosses give XP, and by the time you are 99 only t15s and up. Remove the XP penalty of course and change it to that (to prevent the glass cannon situation): If you die to that particular boss room, you do not get XP. Loot as normal, but no XP. Or to be less punishing if you die, the second time you get half the XP from the boss, and if you die again, then nothing.

People have complained that Boss fights are not rewarding since forever. Now they are. You get XP. Still the general mapping would be (as is currently) far more rewarding for drops, so the argument that people would just speed run to the boss do not hold up very well. Also the current situation is infinitely more dull. Pick up an easy map with a comfortable layout, roll easy mods, skip the boss if it is risky in the slightest, do that forever.

Also, it would be nice to add a new bonus in blue/yellow maps: %Increased XP from the Boss, which of course would be directly linked to the difficulty of the mods.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

More interesting responses. Some helpful, some less-so. And one utter waste of time.

Speaking of, xxjanie's 'wasting time by wasting time' is particularly sticky. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to feel this way.

A fairly common sentiment is that if xp penalty were removed, we could then zerg/glass cannon our way through. Well, not really, no. Removing the death xp penalty is only half of the equation. Maybe not even half. The other relevant change would have to be hard walls where suiciding/glass cannons remain locked where they are. I've seen other games do it; I'm sure GGG are clever enough to come up with their own methods there. My main reaction to folks who draw the conclusion that death penalty is the only way to prevent zerging is 'you're too conditioned to eating the dish of shit GGG keeps serving you'. I don't blame you, but please make a little more effort if you're going to engage in this discussion.

So far the more useful responses have come from those with fewer challenges but high level experience. I imagine that's because they aren't so obsessed with getting challenges done that they can see past what is and consider what might be. I figure if you're the sort to consistently go for 36+ challenges, you've already convinced yourself the system that is is just fine. After all, to think otherwise, to agree that the system is crappy and could do with review but still go for 36+ challenges every league would be admitting you're just an addict. Addicts rarely have rational points of view, which is unfortunate because they often have the most experience. Paradox of veteran gamer feedback, I guess!

Keep 'em coming. This is a good conversation.

First of all, you need to realize that an experience penalty is the most blanket efficient way of getting the result they desire.

It effects everybody equally and implements "game difficulty" very widely.(game difficulty as in = you need to get better and learn to avoid X, assuming it's not a technical related death which i pointed out already i think is the most frustrating kind of death penalty end result)

Coming up with new ways, also imply's efficient people will find new methods of bypassing that method.
That's what they do.

When people say "the death penalty is brute forced by speed farming", that's just the "current" way efficient people bypass the implementation of penalty on error.

Also your second part is kind of elitist, people are perfectly capable of wanting to get the challenges and enjoy parts of the game while not enjoying certain things.
That's how GGG operates, they make a game but don't specify for who they are making it. Always making sure nobody is perfectly satisfied with the current game-state but also not entirely discontent to the point of leaving.

Peace,

-Boem-

I'll add my opinion on one idea out of your OP, that high lvls should come from skillfully beating certain content and not by simply grinding low lvl zone;differently put, skill and knowledge of the game should get you there, not simply time played.
I agree and love it, BUT :
- imho PoE is not the ideal game to implement it, skill has a part in playing it but less than gear has, this should be addressed first imho if you want to later add skill and level checks.
- GGG may not be the company to do it right, not in PoE at least (still imho). Too different an approach that the one they're going with, also 'cause there won't be any RNG involved, if I understand you right...

A simplier solution - as you also suggested - would be to be able to reclaim part/all of the xp lost. Would be a bandaid, yes, but a good one I think.

[as for me, I'm a casual - really! - who has rarely engaged in real endgame, and likes to play HC SSF lately]

Once I hit maps, I'm generally done for a league. There's no incentive for me to grind to grind, and you can't even access that content without keys to each and every area you want to enter. Blech. This is also a function of having no inventory space left for the gear that starts to drop, so it becomes more a game of inventory tetris every time I get back to town. (SSF hoarder without any paid stash tabs... yeah)

-----

I think the XP death penalty is responsible for many of PoE's headaches. It may slow down the leveling to 100, for those who will put up with it... but...

It reinforces the "play it safe" mentality. Never experiment, never test your limits. If you take 50% damage or more, alt-f4 or portal out. You're not facing the real challenges of the game head on... how hardcore of a game is that? This leads people to either say the game is too easy as they avoid all the real danger the game offers, or, if they go after the dangerous stuff anyway, call the game too hard when they die.

On SC, pre-80, I do face all of those challenges, death or not, because the penalty isn't that bad, and I can really challenge myself. If a situation gets really stressful, but I pull out a win at the end... that was fun. If I die trying, that was fun. (No death log makes learning from those deaths nearly impossible, though) Death Zerging can also be a nice form of payback against a nasty enemy, only when I recently leveled up so 0 xp loss at that point, and all I want is to see the enemy dead (like Malachai when my old PC was reduced to a slideshow during that battle - "Who's the nightmare now? I'm an immortal exile that you can't stop :)")

Once I get past level 80ish, all that goes out the window, as the pain of death is wasted time, as very well said in several posts above. I hate having my time wasted - and that's what experience loss is. (and a major reason I hate the design of the Labyrinth and it's disconnect or die and start the entire thing over again... wasted time - usually 30min at a time too - not 15min-or-less speed runs)

Now, how this leads to more headaches for PoE:
This "play it safe mentality" feeds into cookie-cutter safe builds that delete bosses in seconds, because if you let them live any longer, it's not safe.

Builds that can take out bosses like that usually also have enough AoE to also clear trash monsters without ever seeing them as well (I'm sure there are some skills that are only good against bosses, and they have less overall clear speed, but I'm talking in generalities based on threads read and personal experience - your experience may vary)

So, with all these speed-meta boss-deleting builds out there, they shred content without a challenge (avoiding real challenges) but they also reap the greatest rewards. The more enemies you kill, the more loot you get, the more chances for good drops. Map Bosses don't tilt the scales of RNG in your favor for actual drops, aside from maps, so why take the risk?

There is a slight *slight* impetus to move into more difficult territory with certain item bases only dropping from a certain level of maps or higher, and some uniques are restricted to higher level maps (if I recall correctly from the wiki) Some bosses have their own loot tables that make them attractive to fight.

The game could do with more meaningful granulated Minimum Level requirements for gear, (not just stat requirements), as you get to higher levels - such as better rolls (or removal of the lowest rolled tiers of pre/affixes on higher level gear) to help incentivize getting those levels and that gear, only by facing harder challenges. But I'd also like to see that harder content become more accessible than the current map system where RNG decides whether you can challenge that content (or your wallet), rather than the strength of your build.

-----

I've written about some of those tangential topics in the past, but that about covers it here, I think.

Hy @Charan & fellow Exiles, yours truly aka friendly neighborhood casual n00b hoarder has a few ideas, so lets get going (brace yourselves, huge wall of text incoming!):

1. ENDGAME in PoE - Common problems

Right now, the ENDGAME in PoE is a mess. Yup, I said it openly.

High leveling post 95 became a "chore" devoid of meaning - I know that I promised myself to stop post reaching 98, but I do want to keep playing my own favorite build, so I'll be reaching 100 in a few years IF I'll still be playing PoE => I sunk a "few thousands" of hours to reach this point by going at it the most unpotimised way, with a real dual wielding RT single target namelocking build, and I ALWAYS tackled content unafraid of death as this is Softcore, you succeed or simply lose a serious amount of TIME, as instant log out aka chickening out is off the table and will forever be, for me at least.

You should be expected to have a linear progression, albeit more prolonged on the last "few" levels "because reasons" if I'm allowed to cite GGG. What you get is a discretionary status (level 100 equivalent, nonetheless) POST EACH GODDAMN LEVEL UP. That incites zerging on such a scale that the "puny" death EXP penalty and the EXP gain penalties needed to be adjusted "moar" times than I would like - I play PoE since 1.3.0 "regularly" at least a few hours each day, so I got to enjoy most, if not all those "adjustments".

End game in PoE is supposed to be the genial map system. Unfortunately, these days, it simply became way too annoying to micro manage it - we have 4 kinds of maps, 3 legacy versions, that might or might not work with sextants on the Atlas, and the current set.

A map requires rolling, chiseling, vaaling, sextanting and so on, not to mention the work you have to put to interact with the new Shaper/Elder system.

@#&| that. Let me say it again, @#&| that.

First of all, PoE isn't a finished product, as it still exhibits at times the qualities of a BETA product (although I could be mean and call out the "balance" as perpetually ALPHA, lets grant it BETA status as it is "broken" by choice).

As all unfinished products, PoE presents at times various technical problems, various bugs, delays, lag due to server-client communications etc. etc., and to top it all, PoE is a MANDATORY ONLINE EXPERIENCE - hence you'll never, and I do mean NEVER, see me touch the Hardcore settings with a 10 feet pole, because I like to be penalized solely for MY OWN MISTAKES (the only way to actually play PoE in a HARDCORE setting is to play Softcore and VOID the entire account upon character death, especially if you don't want to use "instant log out", and that just requires you to be true about the death cases).

GGG in their wise choice, went with unobscured zerging and a death EXP + EXP gain penalty that punishes you increasingly harsh when your character reaches a higher level, without providing higher level enemies so you're actually forced to fight subpar content - that is why it's always a breeze to advance up to level 90-95 as you're at most 11 levels higher than the most dangerous content the game presents to you.

Why do they find this "OK"? Because they went with "meta rotations" via various nerfs/buffs to "keep things fresh".

Unfortunately, this makes regular players that don't follow "metas" feel like they "miss out", and every time they want to face said difficult content they need to be at 0% progress on the EXP bar.

2. Solutions

2. a. Zerging

First and foremost, GGG needs to penalize players that "zerg" their way (aka throwing themselves at bosses/difficult enemies and chipping away their health) starting from the storyline, as when mapping you at least have a limited amount of tries to "finish content" via 6 portals.

PS: Carried players need to only get a pass at not meeting the damage requirements, and should always be present in the boss arenas, so they should at least be capable to survive those fights next to the carries - so they at least meet the defensive requirements to PROGRESS.

The discouraging should REMOVE the level 100 status reached every level up, and allow a simple "test run" at the map device versus all desired content placed in said device, with the same conditions as a Vaal Breach (no EXP and items gained), with up to 3 tries for a run, so even if players disconnect or have to rejoin that instance they could get a "taste" at what to expect.

Said "test run" will only provide a "vanilla" experience of content, so no additional mods.

That way, GGG could work with a "continuous" penalty for deaths.

2.b Linking content progression

The second thing that GGG has to do, is to entice even casuals to play the HIGH/END GAME content. They can and should do that by allowing better EXP gain on the harshest content. It simply needs to "pay off" to tackle the dangerous foes even EXP wise.

Sure, we could taunt that those encounters are "worth it" loot wise, but they need to be worth it EXP wise also. Must I remind GGG that those difficult fights FORCE the improvement of the players skillplay and progression of the characters items and/or builds?

The easiest way to do so is to remove the additional EXP gain penalty for high level characters playing red tier content and impose an additional EXP gain penalty for such characters playing yellow tier maps (the same should happen when going inside the tiers, so a tier 15 map should ALWAYS be more rewarding than a tier 12 map).

Bosses danger/reward ratios are skewed concerning EXP (not to mention loot, but that is another "can of worms" entirely).

They need to be addressed also.

Players that skip bosses should never get "most" (I didn't say ALL the EXP from a map because a boss still provides anywhere between 0.1% - 10% of the total map EXP, except in some unique map cases) of the map EXP. They should at most get 50% of the total map EXP.

Players that kill < or = to 50% of the monsters should get at most 66% of the total map EXP if they forfeit the boss.

Players that go for "full clears" (less than 10 monsters remaining") should get an additional 10% EXP from the map boss - which should guard 30% of the total map EXP so the bonus would be of only 3%.

Players that only rush to boss should get only 25% of the total map EXP, so successive boss farming should be discouraged.

These values could be further adjust as GGG see fit, of course, but there needs to be better incentive to complete all the maps EXP wise.

2. c. Death EXP penalty & EXP gain penalty

This is a tricky subject as both are as important.

I am in favor of a very harsh, very punishing death EXP penalty. It might seem counter-intuitive, but it also needs to be "fair", so it balances itself out.

PoE went with a "slap on the wrist" for most of the content regarding the death EXP penalty (it's meaningless in the current system, until you reach level 90-95), and they should change that ASAP.

A death should always be dreaded even in Softcore, and each player should always do his best to mitigate it's occurrence, but if it should happen, it should also provide feedback and highlight that further improvement is EXPECTED so a character will better survive said situation next time.

So no matter the amount, it should always be possible to regain a part of it by fighting either an additional monster spawned in the boss arena/map, or one of the current alive monsters needs to become a lot more difficult - think of it like an Essence encounter, the monster should be in a Deshret stasis until the character interacts with him, and should always grant up to XX% (preferably less than 75%) of the EXP lost.

Another way would be to make death EXP penalty intrinsic to the total map EXP, so a death in a map would amount to 16.5% of the total map EXP. It will penalize the player continuously and more directly for his mistakes regarding that specific content - right now, if you die in a more difficult map, you're forfeiting a "few" maps afterwards just to regain what you lost.

Dying subsequently should allow you delevel a character (limited to 10) and block out the last allocated passive that doesn't impede your equipment/skills to function (so STR/DEX/INT nodes will be safe, but any other nodes won't).

If the 10 delevel limit is reached (which would require a VERY LARGE AMOUNT OF DEATHS), a further penalty could follow (-20% global defenses/movement speed etc. until level up).

In the same time, if such improvements are implemented, GGG could further adjust the EXP gain penalty, although they should only do so if the system doesn't work as intended.

Another way to address death EXP penalty would be to apply a loot/crafting/trading debuff instead, and have death EXP penalty removed completely. Such a system would penalize the player where it hurts, in the items that it finds, forges or barters. (I am against such a solution as I think it would complicate matters a lot more).

Another way to add EXP or loot incentive is to grant some bonuses based on the number of forfeited portals (which would have great synergy with the map intrinsic death EXP penalty) so each less portal to the map would increase up to 10% the total map EXP gain, and by 1% the pack size, but it would also proportionally increase the death EXP penalty up to 100% of the total map EXP gained for 1 portal.

3. Alternate END GAME content (bonus suggestion)

I would enjoy if GGG starts to grant "Uber Labyrinth" more attention and adjust it as an alternate END GAME content.

It would need to have a monster level boost up to 80 at least, and a Darkshrine/master switch that disables all the traps (except those in the last Aspirant Trial, which should be disabled by an additional Darkshrine/master switch) protected by a multi phased, multi essence modded difficulty level foe - so it will always be time consuming to do so, and you forfeit by default the time on the ladder - and I really think that "Uber Labyrinth" would become a perfect alternative to the current mapping system, without other major reworks beside a "checkpoint system" before/after each Aspirant's Trial to safeguard from disconnects for 1 additional try per checkpoint (I can only hope that GGG considers that the Ascendancy points "Labyrinth" runs to become COMPLETELY RANDOM, as that would entice even more exploring and would actually improve the sense of a different journey each time).

I would conclude that there are even more (and maybe better) solutions to these END GAME related concerns, and it's up to GGG to find and implement the best alternatives to the current lackluster system...

"

suszterpatt wrote:

A better system would be: when you die, you don't lose XP, instead you accrue an XP debt (10%, like now). From then on, gaining XP goes towards clearing the debt. And here's the kicker: if you die with debt left, it just resets to 10%, it doesn't accumulate.

I agree, I think this would be a better system (but it's a low bar in my opinion). Since OP asked ....

I have a couple I changes in mind.

The first thing that I would consider is Soft Core players being able to turn experience gain on and off once they reach mapping - when the experience meter is "on", you gain experience and you are subject to the Death Penalty. When the experience meter is "off", you gain no experience and you are not subject to the Death Penalty. This would allow players to operate in "I just levelled mode" regardless of how far along they were to the next level. Some rules regarding when a switch could be made would likely be required given the collective cleverness of the player base.

The second thing that I would consider (for soft core) is to apply the difficulty based experience penalty equally to the Death Penalty. If you are getting x% of experience as a result of your character's level being different from the content level, then you also get only x% of the death penalty. No gain, no pain.

The idea is that the Death Penalty would align with difficulty (risk) but one would have a tool to control that risk. Other parts of the game such as experience requirements to level past 95 may need to be adjusted to compensate.

Yeah, I know - the natural reaction is to dismiss radical change out of hand. To be honest, I felt the same way about the experience debt proposal quoted above the first time I saw it. But repeated exposure has lead me actually consider the proposal and I can see that some clever constructiveness has gone into its derivation. For Soft Core, I don't believe the current system fosters a healthy respect for character death, but rather causes Soft Core players to cycle between an enjoyment crushing fear, and an initially uncomfortable but ultimately wanton disregard.

My aproach to end game is play 3-5 maps after logging in and then reading and chatting in global chat. EXIT. Can I have the option to hide the experience bar because it's draining out my energy, interest, and patience to play more maps when I see my experience bar is barely progressing.

What if perhaps we introduce a dark souls like system

you die, you lose a bunch of XP but... if you can make it back to where you died and touch your blood stain for a second or two you can get at least a good portion of that XP back

However if you die again before you do this all the xp goes bye bye

just a thought

"

AnExile_onthePath wrote:

Brap

These are way too Utopian changes to be implemented. Turning XP on and off sounds absolutely horrible and hasn't been implemented and won't be implemented in any game. People will just turn it off for T16 and Shaper that give little XP anyways - nothing else really is matters. Might as well remove the XP penalty all together then.

The level penalty is irrelevant as well, nobody changes their playstyle because of that. You die in high tier maps and never in low tier ones. Oh well, not doing high tier then!

"

Zaludoz wrote:

Now, how this leads to more headaches for PoE:
This "play it safe mentality" feeds into cookie-cutter safe builds that delete bosses in seconds, because if you let them live any longer, it's not safe.

Not true and a false assumption. Majority of the builds can tank bosses and most of the boss engages at high tiers are around a minute long. There are exceptions but exceptions aren't a majority.

Majority of the player base rides the popular bitching train - whatever is often bitched about must be true! Bosses are very rewarding with their map drops, especially the first month of the league and I never skip a single one while being one of the richest players in the game every league.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

First of all, PoE isn't a finished product, as it still exhibits at times the qualities of a BETA product (although I could be mean and call out the "balance" as perpetually ALPHA, lets grant it BETA status as it is "broken" by choice).

As all unfinished products, PoE presents at times various technical problems, various bugs, delays, lag due to server-client communications etc. etc., and to top it all, PoE is a MANDATORY ONLINE EXPERIENCE - hence you'll never, and I do mean NEVER, see me touch the Hardcore settings with a 10 feet pole, because I like to be penalized solely for MY OWN MISTAKES (the only way to actually play PoE in a HARDCORE setting is to play Softcore and VOID the entire account upon character death, especially if you don't want to use "instant log out", and that just requires you to be true about the death cases).

It's an unfinished product for you because the game isn't exactly how YOU want it.

I've never seen a bug in POE during 1500 hours, except once visual lazer show, happens with all games.
Once or twice randomly DCd when the whole server went down which is nothing special again and happens with all games.

This thread's sole purpose is for burnt out players to vent and bitch about things that aren't exactly the way how they want it while making strong exaggerations about everything.
There is little to no "discussion", only moaning by special snowflakes who play SSF in protest / burn themselves out with horrible decisions / haven't got to endgame because of their negative attitude towards everything.

"

grepman wrote:

Let's get few things out of the way:

1)death should be meaningful, if not what's the point of defenses? What's the point of anything?

pretty much this.

I love the xp penalty, I would be bitter and enraged beyond all reason if they removed it. What is the point in anything if you dont care about dying?


I respect the opinions of everyone, Im fond of almost all of you, charan etc, and Im gonna disagree with you guys here, but dont take that as me being confrontational or insulting or elitist or any of that stuff. I have a difference of opinion, its as simple as that, and Im gonna put it on the table, all love and respect to you guys youre beautiful human beings.




Heres where I struggle with the xp penalty forces meta following and hence restricts creativity and doing higher content idea: I dont think I follow the meta, at all, I dont use other peoples builds, I disagree with a lot of trends in thinking on how to build and gear, I just do my own thing. im not a meta player, at all.

Regardless of that I feel like I can make a life stacking build, a life armour build, life evasion, life armour + evasion, life armour + block, life + es, ci es, low life, life + mom... just about any defence combo in the game. I can pick any skill in the game that I enjoy playing and combine it with one of those defences and get to level 90 deathless. I can do it within a week, easily, but time played per day is a factor so thats sort of a meaningless addition.

Is that cause Im a good player? Loads of twitch reflex skills? No, not at all, I dont think Im a good player, I dont consider myself a skilled player. Im just applying knowledge from experience in how I would go about it.



Neccesity is the mother of invention. I would argue that if the death penalty wasnt there then you reduce the creativity. What is the point in creativity if theres no reward for it? What gives you reason to be creative if it doesnt matter what you do? The fact people are dying so much that they feel oppressed by it to me shows a lack of creativity, youve been given a problem to solve, your first answer hasnt worked so you want to remove the mechanic that differentiates between a right and a wrong answer so that you can keep punching in that same wrong answer and pass the test anyway rather than having to be creative and come up with a correct answer.

I think theres a difference between saying you want a game where theres diversity, creativity and an ability to make your character the way you want to make and a game where it doesnt matter what you do, where decisions dont matter, and you guys are asking for a game where what you do essentially doesnt matter as long as you pass an incredibly minimal amount of viability. You can die 5 times in every map and as long as you can do just about enough damage to kill the monsters then you just get to truck along without consequence? Thats a seriously gutter tier aspiration for what should qualify a build that has ascended beyond the point where it has to really care about being better than it is.



I feel like you guys want the mountain to come to you, you dont want to learn, you dont want to take things on board, experiment and apply the knowledge gained, you just want to blindly keep doing what youre doing and have the game adapt to you rather than vice versa. Adapting to the game isnt following the meta, its just playing the game, the meta is an extremely narrow band that consists of about 1% of the viable options in front of you to get to level 90 deathless.

Its just too easy a scapegoat to say oh the people who are managing it are all just copying the same 3 meta builds everyone is copying and theyre just chaining easy tier maps for 15 hours a day and thats how theyre getting over lvl90. No, that might make you guys feel better to just dismiss everyone else and feel like every example of other people managing it is invalid but that is not the case, at all, people are taking on WAY harder content, taking risks, playing all manner of off meta builds and making it work.