Does rIdiculous grind limit the development of this game?

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osesek wrote:

Yes, I know this isn't a game for casuals, the grind is what keeps people playing. But that's not my point.

Let's look at that new scorpion boss - Shakari. I think, it's a very cool, thematic fight. But people hate it, because you're wasting time on phases. Boss should die in 3 seconds, so you can move to the next map!
New Leagues? No matter what league GGG makes, people complain that it's not as rewarding as Breach. The design doesn't matter, the fun doesn't matter. The farming speed is all that matters.
Maps? GGG added so many cool maps to Atlas in this patch and many people don't even bother playing them. Better to sextant block that one map and farm it forever. And the dream map shape would basically be a straight lane.
Quests? Dialogues? It doesn't matter how cool the quests are, skip them and go to the fast farming maps asap.
Why half of the skills in this game are garbage? Because you farm too slow with them. Double Strike? How are you going to clear entire screen of mobs in 1 second with Double Strike? Flame Dash? Just pick Shield Charge, it lets you move faster = farm faster.
Best items? Bisco and Headhunter obviously, for faster farming.


I think, we're all "prisoners" if the grind. We can't try any slower builds, because we won't farm fast enough before the end of league. GGG can't add anything cool and make people actually try it, if of doesn't lead to faster farming. If they change anything about the farm speed, people rage (remember, when they nerfed mob density?).
What if they nerfed those super fast farming tools, but also lowered the grind? It would still take the same time and effort to finish your build, but there would be more ways to approach it. More time to appreciate different aspects of this game.

Well, maybe for some people that is the case
Definetely not for all of us
I like the grind, and i like it slow

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Kastmar wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Kastmar wrote:

again Why you comparing 0.1% of players base with the rest? Of course rich players will be fast. It took me couple years to save currency and figure out op build.im fast but also dying a lot due glass canon build.

actually when you look at it youre the one comparing the 0.1% to the rest when you say you are not finding something decent in 3 hours played. Youre finding what most people are finding in 3 hours, and you think its shit because you are part of a community where the standard for items is being set by people playing an awful lot more than you. The reason your loot feels worthless is because the top guys already farmed 100x what you just found and flooded the market with it.

I'm not saying that i don't find anything. I'm trying to get game better than it's now.

No, you're trying to get the game changed to be more beneficial to YOU.

Here in germany we say "Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt ist der Mark nicht wert." That means who doesnt care for the small things doesnt deserve the big things.

That would fit perfectly to poe, just punish people who just rush blind through all content. You dont pick up scroll of wisdom? get a hidden debuff on your IIR or soemthing like that. People who just look for the big shiny things shouldnt get anything in the end.

The steep grind on the "trail of tears" from 90 to 100 doesn't in and of itself doesn't limit game development by GGG. It does severely limit the 99% or so of players who will be willing to grind beyond level 90 (especially the "casuals" like me that don't play 30+ hours per week). The streamers and low lifers that play PoE as a full time job will grind on any amount of xp GGG sets for the last 10 levels no matter how high GGG sets the xp leveling bar. Since streamers are making money by streaming their play it matters none if they can play only 1 build or multiple builds to 100 in any challenge league. It's just another day at the office to them. The GGG desire to stop the < 1 week to a level 100 build is harming the 99% of their player base that only can afford to sink < 21 hours a week (3 or less hrs/day). These players feel that GGG has turned their back on them in the endgame and are only catering to the racers and full time PoE players. This is not healthy for a "for profit" game company existing only through optional mtx sales (stash tabs as optional is an entirely different matter) as a financial business model. The lack of a pathway for any non-full-time player to advance a build past 90 because there is no way to keep the racers from using it to get to 100 in < 48 hrs. is most definitely a limiting factor in wanting to grind maps. My lack of anyway to play beyond 90 in any filthy casual reasonable time is definitely limiting my mtx purchases. I view GGG's increases of xp required to grind the last 10 levels as a reason not to buy any gear mtx and only buy stash tabs even though I like some of the newer armour packs. So if I look at the high grind from the view of "GGG doesn't care that there is never any path to 100 for casuals" therefore I'm choosing not to buy a supporter pack or any mtx and thus with less revenue GGG can't afford more employees to develop more endgame content then it's a YES to the OP's question.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

They need to quit worrying about players who are simply "too good" for their game. Fine. You win. Great. Make a game that's fun for the rest of us.

QFMFT

This all day.

Bingo.

+1000

What's with the dick-waving contest over "I don't copy web builds". Who cares if you make your own build or copy one or use one as a guide and adopt it to your own. A little experience in the game is all it takes to start creating your own builds, it ain't rocket surgery.

Just that statement alone shows how elitist and entitled your general thinking is, and the rest of your comments are suitably colored because of it.

Now, to the point, MY end game is level 90, I don't even pretend to want to get farther. If I manage to find a decent stint where I don't die and I am all of a sudden 75%+ through a level, I may actually play a little safer and grind the level, but that rarely happens. I do not think this line of reasoning is outside the experience of the majority of regular PoE players.

Let's stretch that to level 93 to 95. Any design changes to exp above that really does target the minority of players.

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Arrowneous wrote:

It does severely limit the 99% or so of players who will be willing to grind beyond level 90 (especially the "casuals" like me that don't play 30+ hours per week).

no it doesnt. It provides you with as much space to grind xp as you want to take.

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Kasapnica wrote:

This game started as a D2 spiritual successor and turned into a cheap Korean grinder imitation.

Exactly my thoughts. +1

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Slaanesh69 wrote:

What's with the dick-waving contest over "I don't copy web builds". Who cares if you make your own build or copy one or use one as a guide and adopt it to your own. A little experience in the game is all it takes to start creating your own builds, it ain't rocket surgery.

Just that statement alone shows how elitist and entitled your general thinking is, and the rest of your comments are suitably colored because of it.

Now, to the point, MY end game is level 90, I don't even pretend to want to get farther. If I manage to find a decent stint where I don't die and I am all of a sudden 75%+ through a level, I may actually play a little safer and grind the level, but that rarely happens. I do not think this line of reasoning is outside the experience of the majority of regular PoE players.

Let's stretch that to level 93 to 95. Any design changes to exp above that really does target the minority of players.

you know big shit about game that's obvious. Because to make great unique character build is rocket science. Every moron can do ordinary character and level it to 90. But only few feople who really now mechanic of game can figure out really unique build like warmagedon(or how it called) or perma caster build a many others using interesting mechanics of game.

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osesek wrote:

Yes, I know this isn't a game for casuals, the grind is what keeps people playing. But that's not my point.

Let's look at that new scorpion boss - Shakari. I think, it's a very cool, thematic fight. But people hate it, because you're wasting time on phases. Boss should die in 3 seconds, so you can move to the next map!
New Leagues? No matter what league GGG makes, people complain that it's not as rewarding as Breach. The design doesn't matter, the fun doesn't matter. The farming speed is all that matters.
Maps? GGG added so many cool maps to Atlas in this patch and many people don't even bother playing them. Better to sextant block that one map and farm it forever. And the dream map shape would basically be a straight lane.
Quests? Dialogues? It doesn't matter how cool the quests are, skip them and go to the fast farming maps asap.
Why half of the skills in this game are garbage? Because you farm too slow with them. Double Strike? How are you going to clear entire screen of mobs in 1 second with Double Strike? Flame Dash? Just pick Shield Charge, it lets you move faster = farm faster.
Best items? Bisco and Headhunter obviously, for faster farming.


I think, we're all "prisoners" if the grind. We can't try any slower builds, because we won't farm fast enough before the end of league. GGG can't add anything cool and make people actually try it, if of doesn't lead to faster farming. If they change anything about the farm speed, people rage (remember, when they nerfed mob density?).
What if they nerfed those super fast farming tools, but also lowered the grind? It would still take the same time and effort to finish your build, but there would be more ways to approach it. More time to appreciate different aspects of this game.

I agree, very nice post indeed.

I find I had more fun ignoring that part and playing HC SSF, this way I try new builds, I dont care about fastfarming and I enjoy the game as it is.

Everyone can do it, we are not forced to fast farm. I only do it from time to time 1/3 or 1/4 leagues. The rest I just go for fun.