Gameplay Help and Discussion - "Doedre's Effigy" cannot be supported by Trigger gems - Forum

"Doedre's Skin" is a new Unique Body Armour introduced in 3.1. It allows you to summon a pseudo-Totem that casts all of the Curse gems socketted in the item as an Aura. The skill has the tags "Spell, Duration, Area." It has a required caster level of 65. I'm pulling that information from the Wiki, but it seems to be true. Given these criteria, "Doedre's Effigy" should be able to be supported by Trigger gems like "Cast when Damage Taken," or "Cast while Channeling." However, this is not the case. I've tried a series of Trigger gems, none of which modify the Effigy. There's no reason for this to be true. The Effigy is NOT a Totem, Trap, or Mine, which is the only criteria that prevents CwDT from working. It's not an issue with gem level, as "Cast while Channeling" works independent of gem level and also fails to support the skill. This isn't an issue with innate skills on items, either, as people run CwC "Whispering Ice" builds. Can you please fix this? Ideally, by allowing me to support the Effigy with CwDT, but at the very least a notation that says "Hey, you can't support Doedre's Effigy with Trigger gems" seems in order. I have to go resell stuff, now, because the build I was planning doesn't work. Wiki page on "Doedre's Effigy": https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Summon_Doedre%27s_Effigy "Doedre's Effigy" unaffected by level 20 CwDT: https://i.imgur.com/z5Ya67N.jpg Bug Report number: 1,920,924,056 Last bumped on Jan 13, 2018, 8:38:15 PM	Posted by Ephemeral_Being on Jan 12, 2018, 11:44:18 AM Quote this Post
Totems can't be supported by trigger gems, so I'm guessing that was their intent with this item; though if that is the case it's odd that "totem" is not listed. It doesn't make a bit of difference, guys. The balls are inert.	Posted by PrinceoftheDawn on Jan 12, 2018, 1:49:14 PM Quote this Post
" PrinceoftheDawn wrote: Totems can't be supported by trigger gems, so I'm guessing that was their intent with this item; though if that is the case it's odd that "totem" is not listed. I agree, that was likely the intention. However, that needs to be indicated on the item. It could have a simple "Doedre's Effigy does not count towards your total number of active Totems," or some such. Though, this now makes me want to roll a Chieftain or Hierophant, and see if it counts as a Totem for their various Ascendancy perks. Other than that or using Soul Mantle's "curse on totem death" (which is obviously incompatible), I don't see a way to test if the Effigy is flagged as a "totem" in the game files. Last edited by Ephemeral_Being on Jan 12, 2018, 4:11:05 PM	Posted by Ephemeral_Being on Jan 12, 2018, 4:10:40 PM Quote this Post
So there is a number of misconceptions in the OP. First, tags are a property of skill gems, not skills. Skills don't have tags, only gems do. Since Doedre's Effigy does not come from a skill gem, it has no tags. Second, skill gem tags are not (and are not supposed to be) an indicator for what can support what. In many cases it works in a way that you would expect, but this is not true in general and this is not the purpose of skill gem tags. The only mechanical purpose of skill gem tags is to classify skill gems for the purpose of modifiers such as "+1 to level of socketed Fire gems" and such. The wiki page for Doedre's Effigy is a mess, it uses the template for a skill gem even though it is not one, and as far as I can tell the "keywords" are nothing more than a wild guess (or rather, wishful thinking) since there is no way to figure them out in-game. (I.e. if there was a fictional Doedre's Effigy skill gem.) Last edited by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 12, 2018, 11:25:54 PM	Posted by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 12, 2018, 11:25:12 PM Valued Poster Quote this Post
" Abdiel_Kavash wrote: So there is a number of misconceptions in the OP. First, tags are a property of skill gems, not skills. Skills don't have tags, only gems do. Since Doedre's Effigy does not come from a skill gem, it has no tags. Second, skill gem tags are not (and are not supposed to be) an indicator for what can support what. In many cases it works in a way that you would expect, but this is not true in general and this is not the purpose of skill gem tags. The only mechanical purpose of skill gem tags is to classify skill gems for the purpose of modifiers such as "+1 to level of socketed Fire gems" and such. The wiki page for Doedre's Effigy is a mess, it uses the template for a skill gem even though it is not one, and as far as I can tell the "keywords" are nothing more than a wild guess (or rather, wishful thinking) since there is no way to figure them out in-game. (I.e. if there was a fictional Doedre's Effigy skill gem.) I'm sorry, you're just wrong. Pretty much everything you said, other than the note about the Wiki page being a disaster, goes against not only logic, but easily observable mechanics of the game. Literally the only way to tell what support gems work on an active gem is to read the blue text, and the tags. The only skill property I can think of without a tag is "Single Target," which is necessary for "Ancestral Call." Likewise, I can't think of a single gem property whose meaning is unrelated to the support gems that will affect it. And, if you didn't know, adding Support gems allows for the use of Support Gems based on their Gem Tags. "Arcane Surge" adds "Duration," and "Spell Totem" adds "Totem." Try it out, if you like. By basic reasoning, you can tell what tags a skill granted by an item has based on what skill gems support it. "Increased Duration" works on Doedre's Effigy, therefore it has the "duration" tag. It can be supported by "Faster Casting," and therefore has the "Spell" tag. It is NOT supported by "Minion and Totem Elemental Resistance," which means it does NOT have either the "Minion" or "Totem" tags. And, despite being a spell, it (oddly) cannot be supported by "Spell Totem" or any of the "Cast when [x]" Support gems. Doedre's Effigy emulates a Curse linked to Spell Totem and Blasphemy, except that the single totem casts every socketed Curse Aura at once, AND it cannot be supported by Totem Support gems (as would be the case if you made a 3L Curse-Spell Totem-Totem Ele Resist). The skill simultaneously behaves (and looks) like a Totem, yet lacks any of the Totem properties other than "Cannot be supported by Trigger gems." That's weird. Either it should have ALL of the Totem properties (and that needs to be noted on the item), or none of them. Hence the bug report. Interestingly (or, well maybe only to me), Spell Totem-Blasphemy-Curse spends 60% of your maximum mana to cast, which is an interaction I've never seen before. Doedre's Effigy, conversely, spends zero Mana to cast. I doubt this has any practical relevance, but there's actually a Corrupted Jewel to reduce that mana cost by 60% (Ancient Waystones). I have... literally no idea why this exists.	Posted by Ephemeral_Being on Jan 13, 2018, 5:07:13 PM Quote this Post
" Ephemeral_Being wrote: I'm sorry, you're just wrong. Would I be able to convince you by some Mark_GGG quotes? One (the rest of this thread deals with a similar issue as this one btw) " Mark_GGG wrote: " IonDrako wrote: " Vipermagi wrote: It's a Spell alright. It deals Damage over Time however, and DoT is never Spell Damage. (important technicalities, it can save your life ;P ) (Skills can have a special modifier to apply Spell Damage modifiers to DoT, but Death's Oath does not have this modifier) No it honestly doesn't have the spell tag, the tags it has is chaos, Damage over time, area, aura. Those 4. The only reason something would have the "spell" tag would only be if spell related modifiers can apply to it OR it can be cast which from what I know of this aura it's always on so you don't cast it. Though even if I'm horribly wrong about that it doesn't make death aura any better of a "skill" Vipermagi is correct that the skill is a spell. The skill does not have any tags, because skills do not have tags. Gems have tags, and this skill does not come from a gem. Two (this is in the FoO beta forum, in case you can't see it) " Mark_GGG wrote: " Bolander wrote: But why the tags actually doesn't make this function? I believe that the first thing that comes to one mind is that those tags are there to help you to know what kind of skill is that and what supports it may have, it 's intuitive. Because the tags are hugely inadequate for doing that, and expanding the system to try to actually describe support interactions would both impeed their actual use as tags, and make gems look like piles of word salad. Tags cannot effectively describe supporting without having a huge number more tags, not all or which would relate nicely to intuitive concepts, and would mean gems had three lists of tags, instead of one, each of which with more tags in them, some of which might have no obvious relation to what the gem actually does. The tag system only looks intuitive for trying to work out which supports apply at the moment because it's a very simple system that doesn't have the complexity required to actually do that, because it isn't trying to. If we actually made the changes necessary to gem tags for them to explain supporting restrictions, they'd no longer look intuitive for anything. Three " Mark_GGG wrote: " taggedjc wrote: Tags aren't there to tell you what gem can support another. They're there for the purposes of categorizing gems, such as for which gems should get a bonus level from "+1 to level of Fire Gems". This is correct. Tags are not meant to explain which supports can supports which skills, and they are not adequate for taking on that task. Supports will glow when you hover over a skill gem if they apply to it, and there is an upcoming change to supports that will, among other things, help explain why supports can/can't support certain skills, which is currently planned for 3.0.0, but can't be prioritised over functional and balance changes we need in the patch. Four " Mark_GGG wrote: " maLcious wrote: Does Breath of the Council increase the duration of a poison, if the skill used is linked to the Poison Support Gem? Only if the skill in question has the "Chaos" tag. " maLcious wrote: Much like the Melee Splash applying the "AoE" tag to a skill that normally is single target. I understand that something like Voidheart wouldn't because the skill used, isn't directly linked to your attack or spell. It should apply the "Chaos" tag if the skill is directly linked with poison. Melee Splash does not add any tags to linked skills. It changes the properties of the skill in such a way that it has an area, but the tags on a skill are defined only by the gem. These are distinct concepts. All of the above agree with the general statements I made in my post. I can dig up some more quotes if you'd like, or you can ask Mark himself in the mechanical questions thread. Last edited by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 13, 2018, 5:21:03 PM	Posted by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 13, 2018, 5:20:04 PM Valued Poster Quote this Post
Are you sure we didn't get the change mentioned in the third post you quoted me? I admittedly played very little before 3.0.0, but the system for determining support gem compatibility is (at this point) fairly intuitive. I dunno what they could do to make it better, other than adding a "single target" tag.	Posted by Ephemeral_Being on Jan 13, 2018, 8:15:29 PM Quote this Post
" Ephemeral_Being wrote: Are you sure we didn't get the change mentioned in the third post you quoted me? Yes. It's the blue text. That is the only indication for where Supports apply. Abdiel is correct: Gem tags are unrelated to support compatibility, and Supports do not add tags to Skills. The latter is easily observable: Added Fire has the 'Fire' tag, and benefits from +1 Fire Gems. Linking it to Cleave does not allow Cleave to benefit from +1 Fire Gems. Additionally, the former can be observed here by virtue of Added Fire and Cleave sharing exactly zero tags. " Ephemeral_Being wrote: Interestingly (or, well maybe only to me), Spell Totem-Blasphemy-Curse spends 60% of your maximum mana to cast, which is an interaction I've never seen before. Doedre's Effigy, conversely, spends zero Mana to cast. I doubt this has any practical relevance, but there's actually a Corrupted Jewel to reduce that mana cost by 60% (Ancient Waystones). I have... literally no idea why this exists. Just going to touch on this real quick too: Blasphemy + Curse normally reserves 35%. Spell Totem adds a 200% Mana Multiplier; 35 * 2 = 70% Reserved. You probably have some Cost Reduction bringing it down? Either way, this is simply how all Supports with a Mana Multiplier work, nothing special there :P Similarly, you can make Grace extremely expensive with an Inc AoE and Conc Support attached. The Jewel exists to make Aura Spell Totems affordable, or even free. It's a little gimmicky, but it nets you an Aura with zero Reservation. Last edited by Vipermagi on Jan 13, 2018, 8:37:04 PM	Posted by Vipermagi on Jan 13, 2018, 8:29:07 PM Valued Poster Quote this Post
" Ephemeral_Being wrote: Are you sure we didn't get the change mentioned in the third post you quoted me? I admittedly played very little before 3.0.0, but the system for determining support gem compatibility is (at this point) fairly intuitive. I dunno what they could do to make it better, other than adding a "single target" tag. Yes, we did! For example, Added Cold Damage now says "Supports any skill that hits enemies.". That line was not in the description pre-3.0. But this is a description of a skill, it is not a tag or a list of tags. Indeed there is no combination of tags that could determine whether a skill hits enemies or not. As a specific example, both Summon Skeleton and Bone Offering have the same tags: "Minion, Spell, Duration". Yet only the former can be supported by Added Cold Damage, not the latter. It is impossible to determine which skills a support gem supports purely based on gem tags, because this is not what gem tags are for. Last edited by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 13, 2018, 8:43:22 PM	Posted by Abdiel_Kavash on Jan 13, 2018, 8:38:15 PM Valued Poster Quote this Post