For all you melee CI doubters!

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Divini wrote:

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seanxjohnson wrote:

Still doesn't make CI playable on a large scale, fringe build that makes it work doesn't speak for the whole of CI. The data ggg showed us showed CI virtually unused by most builds (based on the top 10 nodes, and other info in that post).

But is it not being played because it is actually bad, or because no one even wants to try CI because they just believe it was nerfed to the ground?

I mean if I thought that there was no point in even trying CI I wouldn't have even tried the character and discovered how good it could actually be.

I think a lot of people are discounting ES/CI builds unfairly. I think if you build it right you can make a very good character that outperforms life builds in many areas. Unfortunately it seems to require a lot more knowledge of the game and it's mechanics, which is why I think a lot of people struggle when making CI builds in 3.0.

I mean I doubt any VP builds could pull this same stunt off. Since their sustain comes only off of their DPS with VP, they simply wouldn't have enough sustain to survive the task, and they lack the free recovery that CI has. Also I think a lot of them would die to a Shaper slam. It's these advantages that CI has that I think make it better in many areas over life. It's just that the game is currently dictated by DPS and clear speed builds so it's hard to justify making this type of build if you're going for a spot in the ladder.

Personally, I think CI builds are safer for Shaper than life builds. Maybe it will have some use in HC?

(btw I often survive bullet rains from Shaper with this build :D)

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Divini wrote:

But is it not being played because it is actually bad, or because no one even wants to try CI because they just believe it was nerfed to the ground?

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Divini wrote:

I think a lot of people are discounting ES/CI builds unfairly. I think if you build it right you can make a very good character that outperforms life builds in many areas. Unfortunately it seems to require a lot more knowledge of the game and it's mechanics, which is why I think a lot of people struggle when making CI builds in 3.0.

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Divini wrote:

I mean I doubt any VP builds could pull this same stunt off. Since their sustain comes only off of their DPS with VP, they simply wouldn't have enough sustain to survive the task, and they lack the free recovery that CI has. Also I think a lot of them would die to a Shaper slam. It's these advantages that CI has that I think make it better in many areas over life. It's just that the game is currently dictated by DPS and clear speed builds so it's hard to justify making this type of build if you're going for a spot in the ladder.

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鬼殺し wrote:

And I did check Divini's thread where someone asked for skill alternatives, and Divini did provide them. So while I was inclined to say something snarky like 'this isn't about CI, it's about BF', it's not really true.

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Shazamarang wrote:

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Divini wrote:

But is it not being played because it is actually bad, or because no one even wants to try CI because they just believe it was nerfed to the ground?

CI was nerfed into the ground though. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Whether or not that makes it viable or not is subjective, but the fact that it took a massive hit from both lowering ES values on gear and from removing instant leech is not. It could have barely been touched and people would have likely moved away from it, at least temporarily.

That being said, I would also argue that it is viable for endgame, but it's definitely nowhere near the best way to build a melee character. People are avoiding CI because of the fact that it isn't the most effective way to play melee anymore. If you've been around for at least a couple of leagues you're probably aware the majority of the community is obsessed with the easiest and most efficient way to play, hence the "clear-speed meta".

There's absolutely no reason to play a CI melee build that gets maybe 10k ES max, if you're being generous, when you can play a life based build that can get 6K easily, or 8k+ with a Kaom's Heart. At least not if you just want to make an efficient build. Especially when paired with effects that ES doesn't have access to, such as instant leech, life flasks (though I personally think life flasks are garbage), generally easier methods of scaling defenses such as Acrobatics, blood magic, Slayer's Endless Hunger, and so on. Even for a build like HoWA that scales a lot of intelligence, it's more efficient to get around 5k life and then a 2k ES buffer than to go full ES through CI or low-life.

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Divini wrote:

I think a lot of people are discounting ES/CI builds unfairly. I think if you build it right you can make a very good character that outperforms life builds in many areas. Unfortunately it seems to require a lot more knowledge of the game and it's mechanics, which is why I think a lot of people struggle when making CI builds in 3.0.

People have been "discounting builds unfairly" for many leagues now. Melee especially has always been a victim to this. People who have never even touched melee have been saying that it isn't viable for at least the past year or so up until recently. Before Alkaizer started playing his max-block Bladeflurry character, 95% of the community agreed that melee was shit even when they had no experience with it.

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Divini wrote:

I mean I doubt any VP builds could pull this same stunt off. Since their sustain comes only off of their DPS with VP, they simply wouldn't have enough sustain to survive the task, and they lack the free recovery that CI has. Also I think a lot of them would die to a Shaper slam. It's these advantages that CI has that I think make it better in many areas over life. It's just that the game is currently dictated by DPS and clear speed builds so it's hard to justify making this type of build if you're going for a spot in the ladder.

You say that you don't think any Vaal Pact builds could pull this off, which I agree with, but at the same time it's a point that doesn't need to be made. There's no reason to run Shaper with no supports in your main skill, other than to show off. Sure, builds that rely on Vaal Pact for sustain do require a high damage output, but pretty much any build that wants to farm Shaper, or any content, does. You being able to beat Shaper on a no link setup whereas a life based Vaal Pact build could not proves nothing. I agree that your build is viable, and that CI is viable even though it's far worse than life, but the fact that you think this point is relevant in deciding viability makes me feel like you're grasping for straws. It's a cool video, but that's it.

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鬼殺し wrote:

And I did check Divini's thread where someone asked for skill alternatives, and Divini did provide them. So while I was inclined to say something snarky like 'this isn't about CI, it's about BF', it's not really true.

I like you Charan, but you're wrong if you think this has nothing to do with Bladeflurry. The forum post may be about CI and it's viability, but I doubt that he'd be able to recreate his video against Shaper on a no link with a different melee skill.

TL;DR

I'm not saying that your build is bad, because it's not. It's fucking good. I am saying that CI is worse than life, and denying that is absurd. People aren't playing CI because of this fact.

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JNF wrote:

Only took 10 exalted orbs worth of gear, huh? Oh, cool story, bro. You could've spent about 30c and done it as a berserker.