For all you melee CI doubters!

I've seen people saying that in 3.0 CI is useless and melee CI is especially awful.

I got a run in Harbinger League down where I kill Shaper on a 1 link as a melee CI Inquisitor (with only 1 death due to cocky facetanking). I have roughly ~10ex worth of gear (8 ex of which are a lvl 4 enlighten and a pretty good two stone ring, so not necessary). I'm confident I could probably do the same run on ~2-3ex worth of gear. I don't in anyway have insane T1 gear and I am only level 95. Compared to absolutely perfect gear, I have about 50% of the total DPS potential and 3K less ES. So not in anyway optimized or gimped out.

I just wanted to make this thread to show you all that you shouldn't overreact to changes! If anything I think CI is just as good as life if not better in most cases. Most life builds couldn't do this because VP scales with DPS, and since we have are only running 1 link, most life builds wouldn't be able to sustain throughout the fight.

ES has many benefits compared to life and only two major drawbacks, a 35% mandatory aura and a lack of VP. Stun immunity is now just a Pantheon power and Freeze Immunity is easy to get on a Flask or certain ascendencies. It is still much easier to get higher EHP with ES (which means higher leech/regen scaling). ES has a built in recovery mechanic as well as Vaal Discipline, which allows for easier boss fights + lab becomes a complete joke. ES provides a complete immunity to one of the five damage types in the game (chaos and poison). Also many ascendencies give even more ES (which is already easier to get than HP), like Guardian, Occultist and Trickster. Also melee ES gets one of the best support gems in the game for free, Damage on Full Life, as well as other effects of full life and low life builds.

Also worth noting, VP sustain scales with life leech% and DPS on life builds. But if you have such insane DPS then you probably don't need to sustain that much anyways. Non-VP sustain in regen/life leech cap which scales with EHP. So if you don't have such great damage or life leech numbers, it might actually be better to not grab VP for that reason alone. You don't need to spend extra points reaching VP, you can spend the points you would otherwise spend on life leech% and reaching VP on regen/ES.

The only benefit for my build going life is the ability to stand still in front of bosses, and I wouldn't want to play a game where that's all I did anyways. I would then lose a ton of EHP and CI mechanics that would cripple my character.

All in all, I just wanted to let you guys know that CI is still good if you can build your character right. I can easily drop like 20% of my DPS and still get ~1M DPS (on a 6L of course), and get ~15K ES with 6K ES sustain and tons of tank options. I hope this gives you the confidence to try some ES characters yourself.

Video @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI6lT08pBXI

Killing shaper does not prove CI without instant leech is viable. It proves you mastered the mechanics of a skill based fight with a dps gate. VP is not even actually useful for shaper because the only attack you can actually tank on most builds is the beam blast and it takes less than half a second to side step and unload dps.

I could kill atziri with 1 life and 1 es but that does not prove my build is viable.

Where VP becomes crucial is mapping where several mobs hit you in quick succession for thousands of damage.

"

Nephalim wrote:

Killing shaper does not prove CI without instant leech is viable. It proves you mastered the mechanics of a skill based fight with a dps gate. VP is not even actually useful for shaper because the only attack you can actually tank on most builds is the beam blast and it takes less than half a second to side step and unload dps.

I could kill atziri with 1 life and 1 es but that does not prove my build is viable.

Where VP becomes crucial is mapping where several mobs hit you in quick succession for thousands of damage.

Feel free to take a look at other videos in my build guide, where I run T16's with other dangerous mods, like no life leech, ele reflect, no regen, and tons of damage mods. I stand in the middle of Harbinger packs all the time :D. The build can do much more than kill Shaper on a 1L if that's what you're wondering. And if I'm being honest I feel like it is one of the more well rounded and complete builds out there.

I just wanted to dispel this myth that VP or Slayer leech is necessary on a melee character. You can make very good characters without them that can do all the content and some of the hardest maps out there.

"

Nephalim wrote:

Killing shaper does not prove CI without instant leech is viable. It proves you mastered the mechanics of a skill based fight with a dps gate. VP is not even actually useful for shaper because the only attack you can actually tank on most builds is the beam blast and it takes less than half a second to side step and unload dps.

I could kill atziri with 1 life and 1 es but that does not prove my build is viable.

Where VP becomes crucial is mapping where several mobs hit you in quick succession for thousands of damage.

I really wonder what counts as "viable" in your eyes. To beat Shaper, you have to beat 4 T16 maps and all Guardians, not to mention all the maps you need to beat to get to that point. If a build can beat all content, why isn't it "viable"? Because it can't speedrun Shaped Whatever with 675 damage mods in less than 1 minute? Please, define "viable" for me, because I clearly do not know what it means.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Nephalim wrote:

Killing shaper does not prove CI without instant leech is viable. It proves you mastered the mechanics of a skill based fight with a dps gate. VP is not even actually useful for shaper because the only attack you can actually tank on most builds is the beam blast and it takes less than half a second to side step and unload dps.

I could kill atziri with 1 life and 1 es but that does not prove my build is viable.

Where VP becomes crucial is mapping where several mobs hit you in quick succession for thousands of damage.

I really wonder what counts as "viable" in your eyes. To beat Shaper, you have to beat 4 T16 maps and all Guardians, not to mention all the maps you need to beat to get to that point. If a build can beat all content, why isn't it "viable"? Because it can't speedrun Shaped Whatever with 675 damage mods in less than 1 minute? Please, define "viable" for me, because I clearly do not know what it means.

Viable is a subjective term and will mean different things to different people. I did not use the term properly in that quote. In fact, this build seems very much viable based on what the small amount of game play video I have seen.

A better word to use would have been competitive with the meta. In that case, How does this build, after factoring in cost compare with a generic koam's or belly build wielding VP? If the answer is they are at the same level then this build is both competitive and viaible and all the people complaining about how OP VP is are idiots because the lack of VP clearly did not hurt CI.

For future reference:
Viable has no worth as a term. For some players it could mean being able to farm Act 10, white maps, yellow maps, guardians, shaper, uber or lab.

Competitive means it is within 20%-30% of the "power" of the most powerful builds of the meta. Power measured solely on two factors, the time it takes to complete a given task be it a shaper run or a t16 clear or what ever, the second factor is it's long term surviability which is much harder to measure.

When I say a build is not competitive, it means I would not play it because it takes twice as long to do the same task as a competitive build but this can still be very viable. But would anyone really play a build that takes 20 minutes to clear a t16 maps when a mid grade build can clear it in 4 and a top tier build can clear it in 1:50?

By those definitions I can really make any skill in the game viable with enough currency investment and in that sense poe has well over 100 viable builds but we know this is not the case due to practical considerations of budget and skill efficiency.

"

Nephalim wrote:

But would anyone really play a build that takes 20 minutes to clear a t16 maps when a mid grade build can clear it in 4 and a top tier build can clear it in 1:50?

Of course they would, if they find the build fun...? "Fun" is also a very subjective term, just as "viable", and people can fin the strangest things fun. Would anyone do it if they play competitive, and have the need to measure themselves against others? No, you're probably right. And to be fair, I think the percent of players playing "competitive" is VERY low, unless we define "competitive" different too:)

I play for fun. I don't let anything (the market, the leaderboards, the ladders...) or anyone (players, streamers) influence my decisions. I can't think of anything fun about letting the market decide my decisions, or how I use currency, skills, builds, efficiency and so on. And there's lots of players like that. But hey, I'm digressing. Sorry about that. I'm sure you have just as much fun as me playing competitive :)

Besides that, I agree with most of your post.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Nephalim wrote:

But would anyone really play a build that takes 20 minutes to clear a t16 maps when a mid grade build can clear it in 4 and a top tier build can clear it in 1:50?

And there's lots of players like that. But hey, I'm digressing. Sorry about that. I'm sure you have just as much fun as me playing competitive :)

Besides that, I agree with most of your post.

Absolutely, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying the games in different ways. For me, optimization in of itself is fun perhaps more so than the actual rewards it yields (exp, loot). PoE is just one big optimization equation for me and I'm not competing against others, I'm competing against myself.

I admire your skill to dodge stuff. Still melee ES is terrible not being able to restore it quickly with leech makes it unvaible. I tested it myself. There are just better builds at the moment. You can still get around with range ES as you don't tank as much. But having ES as main defence is simply a downside with the reduced value from the nerf. ES doesn't provide any physical damage mitigation like armor or evasion does. When you go melee with it and don't have instant leech is bad.

Still doesn't make CI playable on a large scale, fringe build that makes it work doesn't speak for the whole of CI. The data ggg showed us showed CI virtually unused by most builds (based on the top 10 nodes, and other info in that post).

"

seanxjohnson wrote:

Still doesn't make CI playable on a large scale, fringe build that makes it work doesn't speak for the whole of CI. The data ggg showed us showed CI virtually unused by most builds (based on the top 10 nodes, and other info in that post).

But is it not being played because it is actually bad, or because no one even wants to try CI because they just believe it was nerfed to the ground?

I mean if I thought that there was no point in even trying CI I wouldn't have even tried the character and discovered how good it could actually be.

I think a lot of people are discounting ES/CI builds unfairly. I think if you build it right you can make a very good character that outperforms life builds in many areas. Unfortunately it seems to require a lot more knowledge of the game and it's mechanics, which is why I think a lot of people struggle when making CI builds in 3.0.

I mean I doubt any VP builds could pull this same stunt off. Since their sustain comes only off of their DPS with VP, they simply wouldn't have enough sustain to survive the task, and they lack the free recovery that CI has. Also I think a lot of them would die to a Shaper slam. It's these advantages that CI has that I think make it better in many areas over life. It's just that the game is currently dictated by DPS and clear speed builds so it's hard to justify making this type of build if you're going for a spot in the ladder.

Personally, I think CI builds are safer for Shaper than life builds. Maybe it will have some use in HC?

(btw I often survive bullet rains from Shaper with this build :D)