[3.1] The INVINCIBLE Sunder/Cleave Glad: Safe/Cheap (~10c), do all content, and map fast. HC Viable.

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BigBadBill84 wrote:
Have you tried to take crismon dance and some bleed nodes like bloodletting and red Storm? You lose a gem by taking the bottom path but I feel like it really can improve damage on bosses with bleed?


I've thought about Crimson Dance. Based on the math, it would be a reasonable increase of around 10% DPS by going crimson dance assuming you get max stacks within 2 seconds of attacking which is possible because this build does around 10 APS w/ ancestral protector, but long story short, I don't think it's worth it and it's not good for this build.

Long explanation:
Spoiler

My bleed DPS for boss scenarios is 5.5k (6k if using surrender with maim support socketed in, but because most people won't have surrender so I'm calculating based off of non-maim damage) when the boss is standing still and 16.5k bleed damage when they're moving.

Crimson dance at 8 stacks will do 20k dps. On a bottom line DPS of ~110k, going from 5.5k DPS to 20k DPS is significant, you get ~15k more damage, but it comes at the cost of having to cut points from somewhere. If you don't need the resistances from diamond skin, I can see 3 points being allocated by removing diamond skin + an endurance charge, and you could probably pop 1 life node to get the 4th point, but you're comparing stand-still damage.

When the enemy is moving, crimson dance does no extra damage while the 5.5k DPS bleed turns into 16.5k. Now you're only getting ~4k more bleed damage for getting crimson dance, and with lion's roar, you can force your opponent to be 'moving' due to the knockback if you pin them against a wall. Yes, lion's roar doesn't last the entire fight, but bosses also don't stand still the entire fight.

I think crimson dance is the type of keystone that you have to build around not something you just grab because you're a gladiator that can inflict bleed, and it works much better with a low attack speed, high damage, high bleed % build because your bleeds will inflict massive damage. Because we use multistrike, our attack speed is high, but it comes at the cost of much lower hit damage and bleed damage.

Having high attacks per second does not benefit crimson dance because the max stacks are at 8. You could easily get max stacks within 2 seconds of attacking (even with 50% chance to bleed) with this build, then every hit after that doesn't matter so you're not really maximizing your build around crimson dance.

Also, because we're using BOR, you don't have the sockets to support bleed with unbound ailments or other good support gems which would give bleed insane damage.

As for getting the other bleed nodes like bloodletting and red storm, if you pulled out of some more defensive nodes like the other endurance charge, and iron reflexes, you could be able to get blood letting OR red storm, but definitely not both without making some major sacrifices which would hurt more than help the build.

The build in its current state is able to do all content with 0 problems besides shaper. Uber atziri is a very mechanically demanding fight which you need to be very good at dodging and knowing when to hide or go in for a hit.

Uber atziri is a long fight because you get very few opportunities to land hits, but I think any good player can do it without an issue.

Shaper is a problem on a different level, even with the extra DPS from crimson dance and bloodletting, I don't think you'd be able to do shaper without dying a few times. The increased bleed DPS only helps vs bosses and not the adds, which kill Zana because the direct DPS is not high enough to stop them. Max block allows us some leeway in bullet hell. I managed to survive 3 bullet hells in a row without dying because I blocked the few shots that managed to touch me, but that was luck, not skill. And I don't think having enough DPS to kill the adds is anything skill based either.

Just remember, dropping Iron Reflexes effectively causes you to lose ~2-3k armour at your bottom line which is significant, and dropping 2 endurances charges makes you lose 8% DR and 8% resists which you will feel on maps that roll ele-weakness. All of these sacrifices add up in the end to make this build much less tanky and durable for no real added benefit since you're still able to do all of the same content as before, only now you're more likely to die.

I have been trying to find a way to get the DPS higher on this build to do shaper that doesn't require huge amounts of currency i.e. GG steel rings or compromises the core framework of the build, but haven't found a working solution yet. I'll definitely update when I do since this build is still a work in progress.

I think the minimum effective DPS needed to comfortably do shaper is ~200k for this build which would allow you to kill the adds fast enough for zana to not die, at that point the fight would be more mechanical and less luck.
Last edited by ironstove on Sep 21, 2017, 3:32:59 PM
Just wanted to post an update:
-Made some changes to the "Starting out" section of the build, added more details on which gems/links to get by which acts to make it a little more beginner friendly.
-Added another video for Shaped Courtyard T15

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aorules wrote:
Nice build! Partied with you and saw you solo a 5 man Uber malachai Core map.
The survivability is pretty legit as well.


Thanks! That fight was ridiculously long because of the 5 players + more boss life + extra projectiles + crit chance mods. I had to basically make sure I dodged every hit because I would have been 1 shot, it was a very fun fight though even though I felt exhausted in the end. Definitely enjoyed the challenge :)

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Ian_kr wrote:
This is very nice build, I think.
As a beginner to this game, I dreamed of only high DPS, but after a series of deaths, I realised that I need a build to go through every map without any great difficulties, and I found it.
Hope many people enjoy this build.


I came to the same conclusions as you which is why I made this build. I discovered that high DPS characters compromise in some way, usually they're not very tanky and much more susceptible to 1-shots. Also in order to get your character to the threshold required for the DPS to roll over most encounters you need to invest significant currency. OFC, those builds do insane amounts of damage and shine in their own ways as well. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, I have made various characters in the past that did 2-3 mil DPS but in terms of enjoyment in playstyle, I still prefer this character.

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champloncar wrote:
was done with the softcore league for now and decided to make a gladiator to try the new encounters in hardcore aswell, and this honestly looks like a very safe bet. Havent played a pure phys char in ages, and this looks really solid (and on that budget!) , thx alot sir.


No problem! I looked at your character and I see you've made a lot of progress. Hope you are enjoying the guide!
Super safe and fun build thus far!

My only worry is that I only got a 3% block bloodgrip. Is the loss of 1% block huge and should i get the 1% from the passive tree somewhere?

Thanks!
IGN: Lmmortalis
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Malad wrote:
Super safe and fun build thus far!

My only worry is that I only got a 3% block bloodgrip. Is the loss of 1% block huge and should i get the 1% from the passive tree somewhere?

Thanks!


You don't NEED a blood grip, it only helps with added phys damage/ bossing faster, but any 4% amulet will do. Phys damage and life are just a bonus.

I don't think you should spend a point to get the extra 1% block because you'll need the points (Only getting 1% block for a passive doesn't feel like good value) + you can cover the gap with items, but I do think the block % is important. I would consider spending the point at around level 97 on my char but that's unrealistic for a guide.

If you can't find a good amulet at a good price, I would suggest you stick with the anvil, esp since you're hc. It's just a solid amulet all-around and I would only switch to a 4% block ammy if you're feeling super tanky and really desiring higher damage.

When I switched from anvil to my 4% bloodgrip, I felt noticeably less tanky from the lost block %, life gain on block, and + armour because my HP bar was dropping more frequently, but I also noticed the faster clear speed and I didn't feel like I was in any danger so I kept the setup.

If you feel like you're in no danger then you can keep the blood grip and play around with it.
Last edited by ironstove on Sep 22, 2017, 2:27:38 PM
Little update:
-I switched out CWS with CWDT in the build to get the effect of blood rage to proc more frequently. I found that the CWS was not triggering often enough during mapping because you don't frequently run into monsters which can trigger a stun on you.

-In the surrender setup, I chose to use maim instead of molten shell to raise DPS.

-I am in the process of playing around with my build to see if I can get more damage (At the cost of some defense) so if you want to follow the core build, stick to the trees listed on the thread and don't refer to my character.

-Added a phoenix video finally. Although I'm using much better gear than in previous videos (better pDPS axe, surrender, steel ring), the overall fight mechanics have not changed so it can still be used as a guideline for how to approach the fight.

Edit:
So I finished with testing on crimson dance which reaffirmed my thoughts on the node, I added notes to the 'alternative considerations' section on the keystone.

In short summary, it does raise your DPS by a bit for bossing/guardians/shaper, but only if you make some drastic changes to the build. With blood letting, and crimson dance the damage improves significantly only if you change your bringer of rain helm to a RRRR from RRRB. You remove concentrated effect + multistrike and switch both with ruthless + chance to bleed.

In order to get crimson dance + blood letting, I unspecced out of both endurance charges + a life node + cloth and chain in order to get the points. The build feels a little less tanky, but still durable.

It's really up to you to decide if you want to go with this version of the build. When you are mapping, you can switch chance to bleed or ruthless for multistrike or just switch helms alltogether but this can become a very tedious process.

I don't think the build is worth doing without ruthless + chance to bleed. With that said, BOR simply does not have enough sockets to really optimize the damage and it works much better on a 6L body armor.

But if you're going that far, you might as well just play a different build alltogether. This build was made for mapping/farming currency. I will add the alternative skill tree to the guide anyway incase people want to look at it.

Last edited by ironstove on Sep 26, 2017, 10:37:53 PM
Hello, This is my version of your build. You requested I post it to review my grievous errors.
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Atalvez wrote:
Hello, This is my version of your build. You requested I post it to review my grievous errors.


So your build looks mostly fine, regarding your block chance only showing 65 on your character screen, that's because painforged gives 8% and tempest shield gives 3%, both of which do not show when you're sitting in the hideout. You'll only get those benefits when you're fighting, so your effective block is actually at 76%, and once you get your last ascendency, you'll be at 78%.
Last edited by ironstove on Sep 24, 2017, 9:25:57 PM
Loving this build so far, currently at 67 and just put my BoR on. One question though, what do you do for mana management? I seem to have to be constantly mashing a mana flask but I see that you don't have one in your current gear. Is there something I'm doing wrong or something that I haven't gotten yet?
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Narivus wrote:
Loving this build so far, currently at 67 and just put my BoR on. One question though, what do you do for mana management? I seem to have to be constantly mashing a mana flask but I see that you don't have one in your current gear. Is there something I'm doing wrong or something that I haven't gotten yet?


Could you make your profile public so I can see your gear and skill tree? I'll be able to comment on after.

But off the top of my head:

A. If you haven't gotten the mana leech passive around vitality void, that's basically how I sustain my mana.

B. I do occasionally run out of mana on no mana regen maps if I overuse shield charge. I tend to walk more on these maps and avoid using shield charge.

C. Third option which you could do is socket in blodo magic for culling strike on shield charge, or put a 'mana gain on hit' jewel into your setup.
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ironstove wrote:
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Narivus wrote:
Loving this build so far, currently at 67 and just put my BoR on. One question though, what do you do for mana management? I seem to have to be constantly mashing a mana flask but I see that you don't have one in your current gear. Is there something I'm doing wrong or something that I haven't gotten yet?


Could you make your profile public so I can see your gear and skill tree? I'll be able to comment on after.

But off the top of my head:

A. If you haven't gotten the mana leech passive around vitality void, that's basically how I sustain my mana.

B. I do occasionally run out of mana on no mana regen maps if I overuse shield charge. I tend to walk more on these maps and avoid using shield charge.

C. Third option which you could do is socket in blodo magic for culling strike on shield charge, or put a 'mana gain on hit' jewel into your setup.


I'm on mobile right now but I'll make it public when I'm back home. I was thinking about grabbing the mana leech passive but wasn't sure because I didn't see it in your tree. But I'll take that as soon as I can and see where I'm at.

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