Damage Over Time Changes - More Information Part 2

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Mark_GGG wrote:
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top2000 wrote:
I hope there is a graphic explaination of how damages are dealt in 3.0


Your image seems pretty accurate.
Here are two parts of a thing I did internally while we were working out what changes needed to happen:
Old System




New System





Much easier than the wall of text :) Good job Mark
So If I am correct

OLD System:
OLD dmg overtime = base * dmg (Dip)* 0.2 * dmg (Double dip)
OLD initial hit = base * dmg (Dip)

NEW System:
NEW dmg overtime = base * 0.4 * dmg
NEW initial hit = base * dmg

What belongs to dmg overtime or initial hit is in Graph
Did I miss something?
Last edited by xBennyx on May 11, 2017, 9:14:04 AM
These changes are really not that hard to understand. The major change was very easy to understand. These other posts are just minor details.


I am still curious about some items and if wordings will be changed.

Ex: facebreakers have more unarmed physical damage. Will this be somehow reworded to affect unarmed base physical damage?

Otherwise the base/added dmg of facebreakers is laughably low and poison/ ignites/bleeds will tickle
"
Mark_GGG wrote:

Old System




New System




Yes, this is much easier to understand.

Let's do examples based on the exact images provided to illustrate the difference. I would like to point out here, though, that a huge part of the issue in these threads is simply informational. People assume that they understand what 'double-dipping' means when they don't. This is exacerbated by the fact that 'double-dipping' is a term whose name creates a lot of confusion. A much better name for the concept would be 'quadratic scaling'.

Let's say we are using Fireball and it does 100 damage base. Let's also say that I currently have 50% Increased Fire damage. This applies to both the 'hit' and the 'dot'. Please GGG put these on separate lines on the skills. This should be doable now. By the Old System chart, there is no way to show a DoT because it relies on a factor external to the character (the Mitigation of the enemy affected).

Old way:

Base Fire Damage: 100
Attacker Stat Modifiers: +50% Inc
Total Fire Damage: 150
Enemy Mitigation: 25% (Assumed)
Fire Damage Taken: 112.5
Base Ignite Damage: 22.5 per second
Attack Stat Modifiers: +50% Inc
Total Ignite Damage: 33.75 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Ignite Damage Taken: 25.3125 per second

Old Total: 112.5 'Hit', 25.3 per second 'DoT'

New Way:

Base 'Hit' Damage: 100
Ignite Percentage: 40%
Base Ignite Damage: 40 per second
Attacker Stat Modifiers: +50% Inc
Total 'Hit' Damage: 150
Total Ignite Damage: 60 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
'Hit' Damage Taken: 112.5
Ignite Damage Taken: 45 per second

New Total: 112.5 'Hit', 45 per second 'DoT'

So, this simple example shows that the New Way improves overall damage if it all applies to both DoT. (Really, it is showing that in this case the enemy mitigation is hurting your attack more than your damage scaling is helping it under the old system.)

So let's take a slightly more complex example.

Same everything, except I also have +100% Increased Spell Damage, which does not affect my Ignite.

Old Way:

Base Hit Amount: 100
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Hit Amount: 250
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Hit Damage Taken: 187.5
Base Ignite Amount: 37.5 per second
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Ignite Amount: 93.75 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Ignite Damage Taken: 70.3125 per second

Old Damage: 187.5 Hit + 70.31 per second DoT

New Way:

Base Hit Amount: 100
Base Ignite Amount: 40 per second
Attacker Hit Stats: +150%
Attacker Ignite Stats: +50%
Total Hit Amount: 250
Total Ignite Amount: 60 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Hit Damage Taken: 187.5
Ignite Damage Taken: 45 per second

New Damage: 187.5 Hit + 45 per second DoT

Now the old way is better in terms of damage. The issue GGG has been facing is that the old system scaled quadratically with the ratio of damage bonuses to damage penalties. The new system scales linearly with the same.

The net effect is that, all else being equal, high-end builds that relied on the quadratic scaling are, indeed, going to be nerfed into the ground. However, all else is not going to be equal. I could do a third example where I have an extra 100% DoT damage and the numbers become almost equal to the new 100% example. (It would be 112.5 Hit + 75 per second DoT, which is not as good as 100% spell damage, but it's close.) When you consider that GGG is likely to make DoT damage scaling easier to get than Hit damage scaling, it seems that this is an inherently more balanced system.

TL;DR version: 'Double Dipping' refers to quadratic scaling of damage multipliers and is very difficult to balance appropriately. There is a huge difference between x^2 scaling and 2x scaling, which is (aside from corner cases) the limit to the scaling of multipliers to your damage under the new system.

Anyway, I may come up with a graph that shows the difference between them. It will likely be a linear/quadratic curve, but it may help some.
From all this i understand that Bleed/Poison will have much greater % from base damage than it is now.
Otherwise even if you add clusters which gives MORE/MORE/MORE... Bleed/Poison will still be useless!

If Bleed/Poison based ONLY on BASE hit DAMAGE and there are no Inheritance tags, NEW Bleed/Poison will not have 8% but 100%+-.

And new Bleed/Poison build will intentionally will take clusters which Increase only tags related to Bleed/Poison.

But still i can't see any normal build which will be only dependent on Bleed/Poison damage, ignoring original damage.
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CBEToffOP wrote:
From all this i understand that Bleed/Poison will have much greater % from base damage than it is now.
Otherwise even if you add clusters which gives MORE/MORE/MORE... Bleed/Poison will still be useless!

If Bleed/Poison based ONLY on BASE hit DAMAGE and there are no Inheritance tags, NEW Bleed/Poison will not have 8% but 100%+-.

And new Bleed/Poison build will intentionally will take clusters which Increase only tags related to Bleed/Poison.

But still i can't see any normal build which will be only dependent on Bleed/Poison damage, ignoring original damage.


'increased/more chaos damage' will still scale poison, and theoretically 'increased/more physical damage' will still scale bleeds. (Not 'increased physical attack damage', but 'increased physical damage', which may not exist anywhere yet.)

Something that GGG needs to do is to make very clear (in reserved game terminology) what affects only the initial hit of a skill, and what affects the DoT, and what affects both.

I suggest 'Hit' and 'Ailment', respectively. So 'increased physical Hit damage', etc. 'Attack' would be preferable but it already is a reserved term (meaning a skill whose damage is based off of one or more equipped weapons).

The old method of scaling was broken. A fire hit of 1000 damage would apply a DoT that did 10% of the initial hit for 4 seconds after. The total would be 1400 damage.

If you had 900% increased burning damage, the hit would deal 10,000 damage and the Dot would scale from the initial hit, and multiplied again by +900% for a total of 50,000 damage(10k from the initial hit and 40k from the burn).

Under the new system the initial hit would still be 10,000, but the DoT would only be 4000, not 40,000.

This is a good change. The old system made no sense when your increases reached high levels.
"

Same everything, except I also have +100% Increased Spell Damage, which does not affect my Ignite.

Old Way:

Base Hit Amount: 100
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Hit Amount: 250
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Hit Damage Taken: 187.5
Base Ignite Amount: 37.5 per second
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Ignite Amount: 93.75 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Ignite Damage Taken: 70.3125 per second

Old Damage: 187.5 Hit + 70.31 per second DoT




Hey, thanks for the detailed post. One question tho - did you apply the spell damage to the ignite here (it says +150%)? Assuming this is no burning vortex, spell damage didn't double dip to my understanding.
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gonaldinho wrote:
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Same everything, except I also have +100% Increased Spell Damage, which does not affect my Ignite.

Old Way:

Base Hit Amount: 100
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Hit Amount: 250
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Hit Damage Taken: 187.5
Base Ignite Amount: 37.5 per second
Attacker Stat: +150%
Total Ignite Amount: 93.75 per second
Enemy Mitigation: 25%
Ignite Damage Taken: 70.3125 per second

Old Damage: 187.5 Hit + 70.31 per second DoT




Hey, thanks for the detailed post. One question tho - did you apply the spell damage to the ignite here (it says +150%)? Assuming this is no burning vortex, spell damage didn't double dip to my understanding.


I did. I was unsure as to whether it did--I am not perfect--but if it does not, then simply assume that 100% of the Hit increase you have does not apply to the DoT in the new system but not the old.

Anyway, to give a tabular difference in what the Old System vs. New System entails, check out the following:

%Inc is the total modifier that you have that applies to both Old and New; mitigation is assumed 25% in all cases. OH is Old Hit, OI is Old Ignite, NH is New Hit, and NI is New Ignite. Base Hit is 100, as above.

%Inc OH OI NH NI
0 75 11 75 30
50 112 25 112 45
100 150 45 150 60
150 187 70 187 75
200 225 101 225 90
250 262 137 262 105

etc.

You can see that, outside of a factor that applies to only the hit or only the DoT, the new ignite is always 40% of the Hit. Thus, the ignite is fixed relative to the hit.

OTOH, under the old system, the ratio of the ignite to the hit is not fixed. Rather, it scales in a quadratic fashion.

One implication of this is that the new system can never recreate the curve seen in the old system, even with massive buffs. You can overshoot or undershoot, but it cannot match the curve. In the high-end cases, this almost always implies a nerf. (I am not saying that this is 'bad'; I am simply stating the case.)

If anyone has any specific questions on how modifiers would interact in any specific scenario, just ask. Just provide the base damage to me so that it is a straightforward application of the diagrams provided by GGG.
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sephrinx wrote:
I never understood what people meant by dot damage "Double dipping" - it's not double dipping. Bleed/Burn/Poison for an amount based off the initial hit.

If you hit for more, they bleed for more.



"
sephrinx wrote:

Yeah, that all makes perfect sense.

Hit something harder, it will take more damage. Very simple.

It's an AoE hit? --> Inc AoE Damage.
It's a fire skill? ..> Inc Fire Damage

It doesn't matter what it is, it will still equate to a larger initial hit, therefore the secondary damage over time will be larger.

Take a big rock and hit something. Now take that same rock, but make it bigger and hit something. It does more damage!



I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how damage modifiers have been getting applied. The reason its called double dipping is because the damage multipliers apply to the base hit AND the DoT. IE, if you have a Physical/AoE skill supported by Poison, adding Concentrated Effect increases both initial hit taken by the mob AND the damage over time effect.

Look at the following example, based on a 100 damage (physical/aoe skill) supported by poison and conc effect.

You seem to think it works like the following:
100 damage hit * 1.5 (conc effect) = 150 physical damage
150 * .08 damage per second * 2 seconds = 24 poison damage
150 + 24 = 174 total damage

That's NOT how it currently works. It's actually:
100 damage hit * 1.5 (conc effect) = 150 physical damage
150 * (.08 dps * 2 secs) * 1.5 = 24 * 1.5 (conc effect) = 36 poison damage
150 + 36 = 186 total damage

12 point difference might not seem like a lot, but keep in mind that was only with 1 support gem more multiplier, and ignoring and increased multipliers.



Let's do the same calculate with 200% worth of more multipliers.

Your way:
100 damage hit * 3 = 300 physical damage
300 * .08 damage per second * 2 seconds = 48 poison damage
300 + 48 = 348 total damage
poison damage accounts for 16% of the total damage (which is what you'd expect, since its 8% of hit damage per second * 2 seconds)

Actual way:
100 damage hit * 3 = 300 physical damage
300 * (.08 dps * 2 secs) * 3 = 48 * 3 = 144 poison damage
300 + 144 poison damage = 444 total damage
poison damage accounts for 32% of the total damage

It's double dipping because your damage modifiers increase both the base hit AND the DoT effect. With the way people have been stacking damage multipliers, it's possible for the poison damage to actually account for the majority of your damage (example, hit for 100 physical damage, deal 300 chaos damage as poison).
Last edited by qwe4rty on May 11, 2017, 11:29:56 AM

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