How to nerf Vaal Pact builds without nerfing Vaal Pact ?

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

How good can regen get with full investment? 25%-30% of max/second?

1 point for leech to achieve the same is still pretty lopsided.

At least disallowing x000% of max/second would give GGG a lever to start tuning endgame damage away from one-shots.

In most games regening 30% of your life a second would be completely overpowered.

Just saying for prospective that power level in PoE is extremely high compared to most games.

Oh, I totally agree. I lost the "slow the game down" argument like >4 years ago to the "never nerf anything!!!" people, though, so now it's purely arguing for moderation and expecting nothing.

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pneuma wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

How good can regen get with full investment? 25%-30% of max/second?

1 point for leech to achieve the same is still pretty lopsided.

At least disallowing x000% of max/second would give GGG a lever to start tuning endgame damage away from one-shots.

In most games regening 30% of your life a second would be completely overpowered.

Just saying for prospective that power level in PoE is extremely high compared to most games.

Oh, I totally agree. I lost the "slow the game down" argument like >4 years ago to the "never nerf anything!!!" people, though, so now it's purely arguing for moderation and expecting nothing.

I mean in 3.0 we are basically ascending to demi-god level with the pantheon system ;v

So arguing for moderation is completely pointless of GGG direction is our character is basically going to become a force of legend in the world as oppose to a heroic exile.

20%/s regen is alredy much more than many games, in terms of sustain PoE is by far the most overpowered I have ever played, but I don't think GGG will slow down the game, at least not by much

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Neah, it should be capped at 20% per sec no matter the number of hits.

Then it makes no difference between VP and normal leech. Maybe, normal leech would be even better.

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CyberWizardB5 wrote:

20%/s regen is alredy much more than many games, in terms of sustain PoE is by far the most overpowered I have ever played, but I don't think GGG will slow down the game, at least not by much

Oh really? As far as i know, most ARPGs have "vaal pact" (instant leech) by default, and in most, it's even easier to get insane Life Leech (leeching full HP in split-seconds). Titan Quest, Torchlight2, Sacred, Grim Dawn, and so on.
What kind of games do you take for comparison? Maybe, classic RPGs life Neverwinter Nights? Or maybe you take some action slasher, like Darksiders2? Sure, 30% regen/turn in that kind of game will be ridiculous.

I've build Dryad in Sacred2 so she had ~100% HP regen/sec (if you recast buff with 12-sec duration every ~8-10 seconds)... Could have more (up to 200%), it just wasnt needed.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Then it makes no difference between VP and normal leech. Maybe, normal leech would be even better.

Nah, capped VP would bypass stacking mechanic so you don't have to hit 10 times per second to get fast leech against single target, plus you skip incremental ramp up like instead of 10% per 500 ms or 5% per 250 ms you get the full 20% in less than 100 ms

EDIT: Would also bypass less recovery rate Map modifier

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adghar wrote:

Guessing you're replying to sofocle10000, who was a bit vague with his fixed 20% thing, but raics on the first page proposed maximum of 20% per second, not 20% per hit, which doesn't have the issue you're describing.
It could be hard to implement in code, though (arbitrary 1-second segments of time?)

Who knows, maybe not. What I had in mind wasn't splitting time in 1s segments, I wanted a rule similar to 'recently', something like 'if you already leeched 20% life during the last second you can't leech more'.

They should have the systems in place to implement that, whenever you leech an amount of life it creates a stack with that number and a duration of one second, the game would just need to add up all the live stacks and see if it goes over 20% of your life, or whatever your leech cap is.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Neah, it should be capped at 20% per sec no matter the number of hits.

Then it makes no difference between VP and normal leech. Maybe, normal leech would be even better.

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CyberWizardB5 wrote:

20%/s regen is alredy much more than many games, in terms of sustain PoE is by far the most overpowered I have ever played, but I don't think GGG will slow down the game, at least not by much

Oh really? As far as i know, most ARPGs have "vaal pact" (instant leech) by default, and in most, it's even easier to get insane Life Leech (leeching full HP in split-seconds). Titan Quest, Torchlight2, Sacred, Grim Dawn, and so on.
What kind of games do you take for comparison? Maybe, classic RPGs life Neverwinter Nights? Or maybe you take some action slasher, like Darksiders2? Sure, 30% regen/turn in that kind of game will be ridiculous.

I've build Dryad in Sacred2 so she had ~100% HP regen/sec (if you recast buff with 12-sec duration every ~8-10 seconds)... Could have more (up to 200%), it just wasnt needed.

We are more talking about actual online games with active balancing, I also played median XL mod for D2 which was retardedly over the top but it's a single player game basically.

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adghar wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Then it makes no difference between VP and normal leech. Maybe, normal leech would be even better.

Nah, capped VP would bypass stacking mechanic so you don't have to hit 10 times per second to get fast leech against single target, plus you skip incremental ramp up like instead of 10% per 500 ms or 5% per 250 ms you get the full 20% in less than 100 ms

EDIT: Would also bypass less recovery rate Map modifier

Endless Hunger does that (Slayer's ascendancy). It allows builds with slow hit/sec and high damage dont bother stacking leech again and again - leech stacks persist even on full life, and will heal you immediately as long as you take damage. It will work MUCH better than VP you want to suggest.
Also do note, that there are passive that increase maximum leech rate. If you'll let them stay, VP will be useless, if limited to 20% per second... And if you want mechanics VS "less recovery" mod, why dont rename VP into "immune to less life recovery effects"? It's much more informative them.

You dont need to "invent" some mechanics to make LL balanced. GGG already DID that - default LL mechanics. It limits amount of HP one can leech per second to percentage of one's like (20% default). So, to leech more (past certain point), you need more life. Also, you cant restore FULL life in split-second, so taking heavy burst damage will kill you. It's good and balanced mechanics, already present in game. But ATM, it's bypassed by most players, in favour of much more powerful and imbalanced instant leech mechanics....

Slow down the game would be a step away from the one shots so many ppl complain about and yes I came from more traditional RPGs what is the problem with this?

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CyberWizardB5 wrote:

Slow down the game would be a step away from the one shots so many ppl complain about and yes I came from more traditional RPGs what is the problem with this?

I agree that game should be slowed down, you just may want slowing it too much, that's all.
I dislike this "clearspeed" meta where loot isnt picked up, monsters are killed before AI can react and character runs so fast that my LCD monitor blurs everything.