Melee builds are complete trash

"

Fruz wrote:

Oh but it has.
You are complaining that some skills are not melee, justifying yourself by the fact that
"My weapon never has to touch anything[...]That is not melee"

if you have a melee attack that needs to hit a mob with a weapon, but then splashes and kills a mob half a screen away that is either...

A) fine, because you used the melee splash support gem.

B) not fine, because the splash is somehow built into the skill gem like wildstrike.


Its a stupid discussion used to shift goal posts around to win an internet argument, this is not a serious debate thats worthy of anyones time. The people who think this way will never be happy, GGG will ignore the things they are saying because they are idiotic and they can see they are people looking for a reason to be mad at stuff, and people with a very lose grip on reality looking for something will always find it regardless of it being there or not.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Im certainly not gonna twist their words in some pathetic, childish effort to try and win some internet text fight because my main agenda is my ego and venting.

The irony.

You're doing it quite a lot, even in the very last post of yours where you decided to discuss something that Fruz made up and base your argument on that. Talk about twisting the words in some pathetic and childish effort to win some interwebz pointz.
Let alone your pathetic bashing of my Berkserker and Gladiator, backed up with literally nothing, just "it's bad", over and over again. Like a child.

You probably didn't saw your 950+ ES regalia, Skyforths, etc. and you immediately went "this sucks". Because you probably can't even play without those things anymore lmao

"

The people who think this way will never be happy

LMAO what an Einstein-like conclusion. Of course that people who like playing melee won't be happy with melee being much worse than ranged.
Warm water exists Snorkle, no need for reinvention.

Also "never". Again some more of the all-knowing stuff. I'd be happier with melee being in a better spot, that alone completely invalidates your little piece of "wisdom" lmao

"

GGG will ignore the things they are saying because they are idiotic and they can see they are people looking for a reason to be mad at stuff, and people with a very lose grip on reality looking for something will always find it regardless of it being there or not.

They will ignore it because of their own reasons, probably they themselves prefer ranged over melee, that's the most plausible explanation.
But they're not officially ignoring it, are they? Reality check for mister wise Snorkle.


We, unlike you and other few forum hipsters (that feed their ego by claiming superiority when you say that melee is fine and that you're doing just fine with it, while the rest of the plebeians can't play as awesome and smart as Snorkle with his 100+ exa gear he switches between characters lmao) would like stuff to be balanced and for a whole playstyle to rise form the grave. And not to be mad at stuff.


If melee was really fine and doesn't drag behind ranged, there would be plenty of evidence for that.
I know that you Snorkle can't use Youtube and Google to check that evidence out. But most of the players are capable of doing that.

There's no evidence for melee being fine and in line with ranged, there's only a ton of evidence for melee being bad (again compared to ranged, since you'd twist this probably and use Alkaizer and shit as proof lmao).

Even GGG's official stance is that they're currently working on improving melee (if we ignore the last two "buffs").

You seem like people who think that melee isn't fine are some few loudmouths on the forum. That alone speaks of your disgusting ego. Talk about a grip on reality lmao


EDIT:
Not sure what else is needed to show how you're delusional (or just feeding the ego, etc.). But we can use your own videos to prove how melee is much worse.
I've linked a video of a wander without godly gear like your melee character(s), he still does it waaay easier/faster/better than you, one of the best melee players around lmao

I think Melee players, especially ones that insist that the game's definition of Melee is the incorrect way to play the characters, fail to appreciate how much worse it can actually be.

Let's say you get what you want and the only thing Melee does is single target DPS with no distance gap: then melee builds would be good at one thing and one thing only and that would be damaging bosses or rares, and they still wouldn't be as good as that as other builds that have much more variety. It'd be like demanding that Shadows only have the ability to get most of their damage from backstabbing enemies and having half of the bestiary immune to backstab damage because that's what Rogues are supposed to be: virtually worthless.

That and it'd probably be boring as shit to only have targeted up close melee having to deal with packs of mobs all the time, and this is coming from somebody that feels that going grounded gritty Melee is the way to go in Dark Souls. It's just how Path of Exile is, it's a game designed for spellcasters, and GGG's direction was to give Melee the kind of tools they would logically augment themselves with in a world full of gems full of power and mystical weapons. This does not mean they are good currently, but it does mean they can be if proper balance adjustments are made.

so im back and ill share my lvl 90 Jugg

i know it is not perfect, it is not build according to 'principles' but ill explain the choices i made

note: this is my 2nd character this league and when i made it i was on an EXTREMELY tight budget so most of the pieces are SSF (i do not like buying non-unique gear). before judging the stats just imagine that these pieces are bit better - better life rolls etc. i could easily replace them for below 10c but i simply lost any emotional connection with this character and wanted it to end as quickly as possible

gear:



tree:


why's and what's:

Jugg ascendancy choices:
- double armour. pretty obvious. wanted to try it out forever. armour did not let me down. i sit at comfortable 10k without buffs and it is perfectly adequate for everything i faced (and with end charges it is simply coozy feeling when phys attacks come my way)
- fortify effect. i wanted to exploit fortify to the extreme (was even thinking about essence mod crafting but saw prices and abandoned that idea)
- classic end charge 4pointer. the biggest selling point is the elemental damage reduction.

wanted to try the accuracy + crit approach but was so poor that couldnt find jewelry to beat RT damage. if that had been my 4th character - id play crit

gear:

underappreciated helmet. i cast End Cry all the time (regen, taunt preserving my totem, end charge generation) and it gives me 20% 'all speed' for few seconds. it helps clear speed immensely

got lucky with enchant as Abyssal Cry is my main crowd-killing skill. Cleave is just pathetic AOE with or without gems/jewels



Always wanted to make a build with it. always ended up with crit claw/dagger or spellcaster. so this time i forced myself into that by buying a nice one very early (and bankrupting)



why not AR shield like Lioneye's? because melee character without evasion is a dead meat (imo). i cannot run Grace (Hatred and that second reservation ill talk about soon take precedence) so all options im left with is a high EV shield


that was the highest i could afford. i scale it with 'defences from equipped shield' nodes up to respectable 7k EV or something like that
note: clear speed meta + ES>all made people NOT PICK UP anything besides ES gear
there are just TWO shields in Legacy that have 1300EV, 90life and 20 cold res..

TWO

http://poe.trade/search/eokooritomahoy
talk about swimming upstream. there are 96 online 900+ ES chests FFS..


Amulet - well.. laziness in this case. leech + all attributes in one package i just couldng resist. and it gives the damage any RT build needs


Fortify nodes. I wanted to test 'all out' Frotify approach. i know it is inefficient pathing etc etc. i know. i just wanted to see if it is all worth it. we have free fortify from Cleave anyway. mixed bag. flat damage reduction is nice but im not sure if it is worth all these points tbh

blasphemy setup. RT builds lack damage (esp with bad skills like Cleave) and Punishment is one of the very few 'melee damage multipliers' out there that i could exploit. It works surprisingly well in practice but replaces Grace or Enfeeble/TempChains. big price to pay for damage, sadly i had no choice

with proper gear i think i could reach 5.5k life (better life rolls on items + jewels with life that i have a grant total 0 of) but this character is sealed now and i will not touch it



what makes this build thrash are two major problems that apply - imo - to melee (in broadest possible sense)

- clear speed. it is garbage. it is annoying, tedious monotony of shield charge, smack, shield charge, smack, shield charge smack every single small mob group. the Cleave area is TINY. it is horrific and terribad (no, AOE gem does not really help, same the threshold jewel stacking)
simple measurement of 'clicks to kill a mob' is terribad. it is almost greater than '1' when with ranged you can kill several mobs with one click

we might like it or not, but POE is a competetive game centered about wealth acquisition (sadly..). builds like these are doomed to fail on character creation screen. no matter how much damage they do


- as long as it is fine it is fine. but it quickly can be a very 'not fine' situation. any map with tough elemental content (and sadly breaches and beyond mobs are predominatelly elemental) ignores what defences 'classic melee' characters have (AR/EV) and makes it dangerous. also pretty much every boss in the game is MUCH more dangerous in melee range. when i hit something that was dangerous (like 4 beyond bosses in one screen with nasty mods) i knew that the only thing left to do is switch characters and offscreen this crap.


this ofc can be caused by the build. im perfectly aware that my build choices are not perfect from min-maxing point and the gear is far from worth talking about but i have two other cheap characters that have zero issues mentioned above

(shrapnel shot build can be found here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1883386



at more 'meta' level the issue is as follows:


'In current state of the game, what is the reason for a competetively-focused player to pick melee build?'



these builds - by GGG design - have worse clear speed potential (thus generate less money per time invested)
AND
are more risky (as in - they have to interact with risk while non-melee characters can completely sidestep it - offscreen, prolif, you name it). this makes certain bosses a 'no go' zones unless certain defense/sustain thresholds are met (imagine Chimera fight - you cannot 'outplay' her smoke phase - you have sustain to survive it or not. there is NO WAY 3k buffer build can beat her reliably. it is a simple stat check + luck check because you might die if he hides in the last cloud)


for me it boils down to this:

defences are separated from melee/spell/archer archetype choice. so why should i use melee when i can have similar AR/EV/life (or ES rather because why life) as an archer?

GGG simply forgot to create a reason for melee players to play melee other than fun. but this game is a multiplayer competitive game with little place for 'fun' as a build choice option (if you want to buy yourself some good gears and gamble for relics)

"

tinko92 wrote:

Even GGG's official stance is that they're currently working on improving melee (if we ignore the last two "buffs").

The 1 handed weapon buff is noticeable, and gave me confidence that GGG might be on to something regarding "improving" melee.

"

sidtherat wrote:

'In current state of the game, what is the reason for a competetively-focused player to pick melee build?'



these builds - by GGG design - have worse clear speed potential (thus generate less money per time invested)
AND
are more risky (as in - they have to interact with risk while non-melee characters can completely sidestep it - offscreen, prolif, you name it). this makes certain bosses a 'no go' zones unless certain defense/sustain thresholds are met (imagine Chimera fight - you cannot 'outplay' her smoke phase - you have sustain to survive it or not. there is NO WAY 3k buffer build can beat her reliably. it is a simple stat check + luck check because you might die if he hides in the last cloud)


for me it boils down to this:

defences are separated from melee/spell/archer archetype choice. so why should i use melee when i can have similar AR/EV/life (or ES rather because why life) as an archer?

GGG simply forgot to create a reason for melee players to play melee other than fun. but this game is a multiplayer competitive game with little place for 'fun' as a build choice option (if you want to buy yourself some good gears and gamble for relics)

That is the main question, why melee never had a purpose like halving the time of difficult encounters with rares and bosses?

Due to a gap between clearspeeds, melee should have an advantage when facing difficult opponents, as getting in their face and hitting them should feel more rewarding and having way more impact than shooting them from afar or filling the screen with pretty colours...

Melee should have been kept as a condition for anything hit in a 16 radius around character and that is it. There should have been an AoE tag for everything else.

Due to their request to actually hit something to do damage, xxxxx Strike skills like Wildstrike, Static/Heavy/Dual/Double/Vigilant/Flicker/Viper Strike + Glacial Hammer, Infernal Blow, Frenzy and Puncture are "melee" and the rest of the attack skills could have just the same "AoE" as main tag instead of "melee" - disregarding the movement attack skills, although Flicker Strike is an exception.

Although if they added a form of splash damage to all single target skills, we wouldn't feel this passionate about this point.

And all "melee" skills should have granted a buff like Fortify if you had scored a hit on an enemy in a radius of 16 around your character, and not on simple use with a movement skill...

or just limit any and all 'leech' to 'melee radius'

suddenly pretty much every idiotic scenario is removed from the game

safety of kiting? no leech
facehuging (no matter if attack or lightning tendrils) leech
offscreen reflect? no leech -> resurrect
close-range reflect? leech -> chance of survival

etc etc

one simple move that actually gives 'close range combat' identity, purpose and meaning


and then remove instant leech.

suddenly defences other than 'buffer + damage' have a meaning. because currently you do not NEED them. just watch the utter stupidity of Mathil's BLS moltenstriker.. just wath it. it is completely idiotic at this point. all thanks to instant leech.

"

sidtherat wrote:

or just limit any and all 'leech' to 'melee radius'

suddenly pretty much every idiotic scenario is removed from the game

safety of kiting? no leech
facehuging (no matter if attack or lightning tendrils) leech
offscreen reflect? no leech -> resurrect
close-range reflect? leech -> chance of survival

etc etc

one simple move that actually gives 'close range combat' identity, purpose and meaning


and then remove instant leech.

suddenly defences other than 'buffer + damage' have a meaning. because currently you do not NEED them. just watch the utter stupidity of Mathil's BLS moltenstriker.. just wath it. it is completely idiotic at this point. all thanks to instant leech.

Oh, don't start me with BLS and Molten Strike, not to mention Wildfire that grants LMP per jewel and 25% increased AoE.

Instant leech should have been following the same rules as leech and be permanently capped at 25% of HP/ES per second.

PS: By the way, I'm still waiting for threshold jewels as bonkers for Static Strike or Ice Crash, although the new limit of 2 for Weight of the Empire and the limit of 1 for Might and Influence doesn't give me very high hopes...

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

The 1 handed weapon buff is noticeable, and gave me confidence that GGG might be on to something regarding "improving" melee.

I didn't put that in those two "buffs".

It is a step forward, but it's still only swords that got buffed properly. And even that's not enough because the real problem isn't that melee weapons have slightly lower DPS so that's why melee sucks.
That alone won't do much, if anything in the greater picture. But it's still better than the MS buff and "this is a buff" from earlier.


In the end, everybody, including the devs are on the same page regarding the power of melee in PoE. Everybody except the best melee player ever called Snorkle and a couple of other forum hipsters that are trying to look smart. Pathetic.

"

tinko92 wrote:

[...]

nop .... like ... nop, you didn't get it at all.
I haven't made up anything, I quoted you and pointed out something, and you don't like it.

And the only thing you can do is trying to resort to childish and hollow ad-hominem.
And then you are trying to change other word's to try to pretend that some think that melee is completely fine, it's really fallacious, but more : it's very ironic.

let's accept the premise "melee is not fine"

then:

my opinion is that non-melee needs to also be "not fine"

(I believe this is pretty much the crux of Peterlerock's viewpoint as well)