Does '40% increased Fireball Damage' helmet enchant double dips my fireball?

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Vipermagi wrote:

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AusterlitZ wrote:

No, skill only modifiers can only apply to the skill itself.

The Damage over Time is still part of the Skill itself; that's why the DoT benefits from linked Supports and the likes.

It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage".

Support gems or damage modifiers can apply to dots if they are eligible to modify it.

For an ignite caused by Vortex that will be - Area damage, elemental damage, totem damage if Vortex is used by a totem, fire damage, burning damage, damage over time, generic damage and finally spell damage. Nothing else will directly modify this dot.

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AusterlitZ wrote:

It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage".

Ah, you probably mean those mods like the damage multiplier on Incinerate or Flameblast. Those are an exception of sorts, I don't know of anything else in the game that works that way.

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raics wrote:

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AusterlitZ wrote:

It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage".

Ah, you probably mean those mods like the damage multiplier on Incinerate or Flameblast. Those are an exception of sorts, I don't know of anything else in the game that works that way.

They are not exceptions, they behave exactly the same as many other skill only modifers. All skill only modifiers act the same way, and these helm enchants make no exception. For a modifier to double dip it needs to be a valid dot modifier.

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raics wrote:

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adghar wrote:

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grepman wrote:

hmm, thats very strange as I was pretty sure those bonuses did not double dip.

To be fair, raics technically didn't test an actual helm enchant, just a modifier with similar wording. I feel it would be worth it for someone (me???) to test with an actual helm enchant for confirmation's sake.

Yeah the whole thing relies on an assumption that the game handles mods to a skill type the same way as to a specific skill, I'd repeat the test but I never got into the possession of a helmet with an enchant I could use for it.

This assumption has a very high chance of being faulty; skill tags (such as the movement skill tag tested in this case) are not the same as doing damage with the actual skill. Support tags are well known to be inherited to the following statuses in many cases, I haven't seen evidence to say that the skill itself does.

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Vipermagi wrote:

"It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage"."
1. This is blatantly untrue because Increased Contagion Damage exists, and Contagion does nothing but deal Damage over Time.

2. "Modifiers to Spell Damage apply to this skill's Damage Over Time" applies to Ignite/Poison. Clearly, the game decided that Ignite/Poison is Vortex Damage, otherwise it wouldn't apply Spell Damage.

The wording from dev comments on this (which I can't find at the moment) imply that the tags that are applicable to the dot are derived at the moment of the dot's creation, then it becomes its own entity. There is nothing inherently supporting or decrying whether or not skill damage works. In the case of vortex, it means that the "spell damage" tag can be applied to the dot created by vortex, not necessarily that that damage is tagged as "vortex" damage.

I'm not sure how spells like contagion fit with this, since they are in essence spells that only create a status effect and they still have "increased damage" stats available to them on helms. It's possible the damage works in the same way - it is applied by an upfront skill that does "x" damage, with a unique way to apply that as a dot to the mob. Either way, nothing here is solid proof in either direction.

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Vipermagi wrote:

"It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage"."
1. This is blatantly untrue because Increased Contagion Damage exists, and Contagion does nothing but deal Damage over Time.

2. "Modifiers to Spell Damage apply to this skill's Damage Over Time" applies to Ignite/Poison. Clearly, the game decided that Ignite/Poison is Vortex Damage, otherwise it wouldn't apply Spell Damage.

1.Contagion cannot double dip because it cannot hit. That enchant is a skill only modifier. The dot is the skill itself. An ignite caused by Fireball cannot be Fireball damage.

To be more clear since i was talking about the specific example in the OP, dots created by a hit cannot be modified by skill only modifiers. So for example an ED helm enchant will increase both the hit and the ED dot, but if you apply Poison with the ED that Poison won't be double dipped by that bonus.

2.This is wrong on multiple levels. Dots generated from hits cannot be "x skill damage". Vortex's cold dot is Vortex damage, an Ignite or a Poison will not be.

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AusterlitZ wrote:

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Vipermagi wrote:

"It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage"."
1. This is blatantly untrue because Increased Contagion Damage exists, and Contagion does nothing but deal Damage over Time.

2. "Modifiers to Spell Damage apply to this skill's Damage Over Time" applies to Ignite/Poison. Clearly, the game decided that Ignite/Poison is Vortex Damage, otherwise it wouldn't apply Spell Damage.

1.Contagion cannot double dip because it cannot hit. That enchant is a skill only modifier. The dot is the skill itself. An ignite caused by Fireball cannot be Fireball damage.

To be more clear since i was talking about the specific example in the OP, dots created by a hit cannot be modified by skill only modifiers. So for example an ED helm enchant will increase both the hit and the ED dot, but if you apply Poison with the ED that Poison won't be double dipped by that bonus.

2.This is wrong on multiple levels. Dots generated from hits cannot be "x skill damage". Vortex's cold dot is Vortex damage, an Ignite or a Poison will not be.

You're saying this in a very matter-of-fact way that implies that you've seen evidence to support it. You could just provide the evidence and the argument would be done :s

I want to know this, too, so I bump it. Honestly, when I think about it, it makes more sense for them to actually work.
It seems that the skill specific modifiers are only limiting which skills will be affected, and not so much how. They seem to be generic damage bonuses when used with certain skill.

Whenever DoT created with a skill is this skill's damage or not doesn't matter, since DoTs can be increased by, say, projectile damage. I haven't seen a single DoT that was projectile... :V

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AusterlitZ wrote:

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raics wrote:

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AusterlitZ wrote:

It doesn't matter, dots can never be "x skill damage".

Ah, you probably mean those mods like the damage multiplier on Incinerate or Flameblast. Those are an exception of sorts, I don't know of anything else in the game that works that way.

They are not exceptions, they behave exactly the same as many other skill only modifers. All skill only modifiers act the same way, and these helm enchants make no exception. For a modifier to double dip it needs to be a valid dot modifier.

Which 'all others'? And I've already shown that 'generic damage bonus to the skill if it is of X type' do apply, that shouldn't be a valid DoT bonus by your logic.

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Pathological wrote:

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raics wrote:

Yeah the whole thing relies on an assumption that the game handles mods to a skill type the same way as to a specific skill, I'd repeat the test but I never got into the possession of a helmet with an enchant I could use for it.

This assumption has a very high chance of being faulty; skill tags (such as the movement skill tag tested in this case) are not the same as doing damage with the actual skill. Support tags are well known to be inherited to the following statuses in many cases, I haven't seen evidence to say that the skill itself does.

Sure, there's a chance, but if I've caught anything about the way devs implement modifiers like that it isn't a very high chance.

Eeenyway, unless someone would like to donate a helm in standard with an enchantment to any attack or fire skill so I can test it again we will have to wait for confirmation in the mechanics thread because I sure as hell ain't buying one. Nephalim asked it a while ago and it seems Mark has recovered now.