I want to love POE... please let me be a filthy casual.

What is the average level of your chars? For casual players it should be about lvl 60, 70 tops - which is kinda fast to get to. What you do is (eventually) create a collection of ~20 chars and then use the three-monthly free respec to play with them. You could even power level chars (use the same build, same twink gear) to say 60 and then leave them until the next respec.

I can understand the desire to have a free respec whenever you want, but that would invalidate a big chunk of strategy and planning. If GGG would sell respec points, well, that is another can of worms that should not be opened.

This is just the way PoE is designed and will not change. The best you can do is adapt yourself around it.

Why? Why do I have to simply "grin and bear it"? The only thing a league like this opens up is the ability for non-casuals to test end-game builds without having to spend thousands of hours. I would argue that the "you can't respec your character" is nothing more than a way to artificially add play time to the game. I don't think that having this limitation actually adds anything to the game. Again, there is no reason the two cannot exist at the same time. Hardcore and less-casual will be able to continue playing the way you currently are without having any effect at all.

For casual players level 60-70 average is very unlikely. What you are talking about are players who actually have a good amount of time to invest in to the game. There is a reason D2 and D3 both went with this method, as well as anything blizzard related. Now, granted, there is a little TOO much casual with Blizzard and I know that word is bad juju around these parts. But the fact remains that it was added because it removes an artificial barrier.

As to selling respecs... oh good god no. That would be the worst thing that could ever happen to POE. Thus far I enjoy that the only thing you truly "need" to spend money on is more storage space and I'm perfectly ok with it remaining that way.

TLDR: "That's the way it was designed" doesn't mean that's the way it needs to stay. Games evolve with the players.

"

morbo wrote:

What is the average level of your chars? For casual players it should be about lvl 60, 70 tops - which is kinda fast to get to. What you do is (eventually) create a collection of ~20 chars and then use the three-monthly free respec to play with them. You could even power level chars (use the same build, same twink gear) to say 60 and then leave them until the next respec.

I can understand the desire to have a free respec whenever you want, but that would invalidate a big chunk of strategy and planning. If GGG would sell respec points, well, that is another can of worms that should not be opened.

This is just the way PoE is designed and will not change. The best you can do is adapt yourself around it.

1) it would divide the player-base

2) due to point 1) trade and the entire economical balance would change

3) it would force development time to be spread out over different realms

4) design choices would have to be doubled since what is right for realm A might not be for realm B

5) GGG is a business, not a charity, expanding play-time is a valid strategy in order to pull more resources

Could probably think of some more if you want, but all i see is somebody with limited time expecting to accomplish the same things people with a lot of time do in a game centered around acquisition of goods based on time spend.

There is nothing wrong with artificially increasing the games length since it puts food on the tables.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Why? Why do I have to simply "grin and bear it"? The only thing a league like this opens up is the ability for non-casuals to test end-game builds without having to spend thousands of hours. I would argue that the "you can't respec your character" is nothing more than a way to artificially add play time to the game. I don't think that having this limitation actually adds anything to the game. Again, there is no reason the two cannot exist at the same time. Hardcore and less-casual will be able to continue playing the way you currently are without having any effect at all.

This league would have two possible effects, neither are really good:

a) Only casuals would play there and if it is only players of your caliber there would rarely be any trade and the league would be incredible empty. Because casual means not much time, which is fine you don't need much time for casual play, but if you also lack the knowledge to use this time efficient it means trouble, collecting all those players in one league would be odd, because they would have nobody who sells them cheap items.

b) All of standard mitigates to this league because a lot of their buyers are gone.


When I first started I was terrible and regardless of how much time I had to play I constantly improved got more knowledge etc. Nowaday I can level quite fast and the thing is most the times my issue is that I have chosen the wrong class, respeccing is not that hard unless you want to play a completly different style of char, in which case you should create a new character exspecially if you lack the knowledge just to get used to how the new chars mechanics work.

And the easiest thing is to slowly build up a few more chars, when I wouldn't clear up my chars every once in a while I could respec a lot of chars every new league.


However the big issue is that it is impossible to disect the small standard population even further. There are already propably too few people in standard for it to be healthy (technically it neither was), so splitting that up would be bad.

Technically I would argue that they should turn Hardcore into a character option and remove the league as well. Because there is no downside playing with standard players the game is the same and you could still keep seperate ladders but it would enlarge the market (even though not by much).

I understand OP.

I chewed through all this myself (after years still more of a solo player than party/trade mogul), and when you get stuck on a character, this game truly starts to become mighty unappealing, punishing, prohobitive.

When you´re stuck and don´t have much time on your hands, all the "viable" options really aren´t options. Leveling a new character, just to correct some mistakes, will take a couple days. Farming up currency to trade and buy regrets, might take a lot longer than you like. Perhaps you cannot even do so because you somehow got stuck in a bad spot where you cannot equip your stuff anymore.

Heck, even at level 99 and with lots of experience, I sometimes find myself running out of orbs when experimenting on new builds. And THANKS to GGG´s permanent balance rework, I started again at 2.5, needing to find a new build because I was Mjölnering along until 2.4 patch hit the realm and turned this awesome build to crap. Took a break for entire 2.4 duration and only came back to 2.5.

Since then, I spent somewhere between 30-50 ex trying out builds, recoloring chestpieces, buying some enabling uniques, respeccing this and that etc, and the frustration when you eventually go broke is HUGE.

Nobody likes to do stupid mindless farming just to be able to play the game in a way he likes, and with the game being so complex, it can take very long to even find out what that exactly is.

So, I can definitely sympathize with the request. Sometimes all you wanna do is PLAY and not work through the wiki/youtube/forums for hours and hours until you might come up with a nice plan. Not everybody is a Kripparrian who beats the game in theory before actually making a build and playing it.

"

FeistyPeisty wrote:

I understand OP.

I chewed through all this myself (after years still more of a solo player than party/trade mogul), and when you get stuck on a character, this game truly starts to become mighty unappealing, punishing, prohobitive.

When you´re stuck and don´t have much time on your hands, all the "viable" options really aren´t options. Leveling a new character, just to correct some mistakes, will take a couple days. Farming up currency to trade and buy regrets, might take a lot longer than you like. Perhaps you cannot even do so because you somehow got stuck in a bad spot where you cannot equip your stuff anymore.

Heck, even at level 99 and with lots of experience, I sometimes find myself running out of orbs when experimenting on new builds. And THANKS to GGG´s permanent balance rework, I started again at 2.5, needing to find a new build because I was Mjölnering along until 2.4 patch hit the realm and turned this awesome build to crap. Took a break for entire 2.4 duration and only came back to 2.5.

Since then, I spent somewhere between 30-50 ex trying out builds, recoloring chestpieces, buying some enabling uniques, respeccing this and that etc, and the frustration when you eventually go broke is HUGE.

Nobody likes to do stupid mindless farming just to be able to play the game in a way he likes, and with the game being so complex, it can take very long to even find out what that exactly is.

So, I can definitely sympathize with the request. Sometimes all you wanna do is PLAY and not work through the wiki/youtube/forums for hours and hours until you might come up with a nice plan. Not everybody is a Kripparrian who beats the game in theory before actually making a build and playing it.

Either way, rushing up to a level 70-90 is achievable for a casual n00b that just plays the game without paying attention, by just reading the goddamn skilldrasil and the constant swaping of skill gems until he hits the right combos - only if he can't be bothered to search for a build, read the wiki, browse the unofficial "trade" house, if he gets a bit invested, he has "easy mode on" by just PLAYING...

I find the actual system with free respecs every league sufficient enough, as your choices should always count towards the goal - be that the most optimum way to level to 100, or just having a fun build that can tackle the content...

At times I played the same build - my own creation - during several respecs, just because it felt right for me, and no, I didn't took the easiest way by using all the exploits, I just adapted as I reached higher and higher content...

It helps to be a casual n00b hoarder that always stashes stuff, and with all the "crap" that I got until now, I could always piece together cool builds if I choose, so not amasing thousands of EX/Mirrors doesn't bother me at all, and shouldn't bother anyone except those that focus on flipping, scamming or manipulating trade as a thrill...

Im a casual and in the installing/uninstalling box every so often because this game has some pretty big design issues.

I dont think constant respeccs should be a thing, but perhaps the game could offer one once when you activate the MAPS machine for the first time. 3 months thereafter in between leagues is fair and enough.

If you are not a good player, follow a guide for beginners. Do exactly as that guide or similar, and you will do fine. In this, PoE is just like that, you have a build that works or you hit a wall. This is a design choice removed from being able to play casually or not.

Furthermore, listen to people here. If they tell you you can get to merciless end in 12 hours play time, it is true. I levelled 2 characters to 50-60 very slowly. Then saw a video of someone rushing acts. Tried it, and got to merciless in hardly any time, with a fresh character in a league, no items.

Sincerely,

From a one casual to another.


PS: Getting a into maps is decent for casuals, lets you do 1 or 2 maps and call it a day, satisfying.

standard is your filthy casual league, it's what i play unless something of the new leagues interests me

Oh Kripparrian ... haven't heard that name in a while.

You are correct... when it comes right down to it I'm perfectly ok playing this game single player. That is not something they will ever entertain however and as a developer I understand why.

I'm sitting at work discussing with everyone here (who have also played POE) how we all agree and how the arguments against it are rather paper thin.

So let's continue to address some of the things mentioned above:

1- The population of Standard League and (arguably) the entire game is diminishing.

Correct, because the game is now 4 years old. Yes, there continues to be new content and as I've mentioned that is fantastic. It's amazing that a smallish community is able to continuing supporting GGG in their endeavors. The fact remains is that the game is aging at this point. Any new people are easily turned away once they realize the amount of commitment needed in order to be successful. This is a negative for the game. It always has been.

2- Having a casual league will be full of people who never trade and have no idea what they're doing with each other.

Ok... and? So what? How does that affect you? Don't play in the casual league. I expect this in any game really. Put all us idiots in the same spot... I'm ok with that. Even in standard I turn off the chat log immediately.

3- You get respecs like once every three months! ITS FINE!

No... no it's not. If that's your play method requirement then the game is broken. The reason for most of those respecs is that the passive tree is changing constantly... it is impossible to keep up with. Adding one more barrier to us filthy casuals.

4- "We could just mix hardcore and standard!"

no... just no. You can't. You will have a community of hardcore twinks and this will remove the permanency aspect by making you simply buy the best gear immediately from the easier players. The economy would collapse for hardcore players.

5- Development time would need to be split!

No. Not really. The balance of the game doesn't change at all with a casual community. The only thing that WILL change is the economy. The economy will be minimal. This is a given. Things will be incredibly cheap because the economy in that filthy casual league will be full of supply and no demand. That's perfectly ok. There will STILL be people in the trade channel selling to us fools because it's easier to buy than to get ourselves. The economy won't be non-existent it'll just be different.

6- GGG is a business not a charity!

Yes, you are correct. They are. They like money. Just like all of us. And yes, to some extent adding playtime by requiring a player to do a certain thing is a valid way of creating more revenue. I've been doing this a long time, this is not a foreign concept to me. However, there are diminishing returns on this, and you need to be very careful in the way that you present it. My current argument is that they are losing more playing due to the hardcore nature of the game than they are keeping around.

That is: more players = more money. Less players with a longer playtime = less money. This is statistical fact, you can do some research if you like but it is so. There are MANY MANY other ways in which POE adds longevity to play time however. The ridiculous amount of skill gems (not a complaint, I love it), the massive tree and the many ways to reconfigure it, extended content, interesting new leagues and ladders. They have more than enough content to make up for loss of this one thing.

7- "I have a gazillion characters it's not that hard!"

Right... but you have TIME. Something that many of us that complain are (and always have been) lacking. Yes, I lack skill too I don't deny that. But so what? Why do you care if I'm not in the same league as you? Let me suck. Creating that many characters to level 60-70 is a HUGE time investment. The problem is you don't even realize the amount of time you've put in to those characters. I can't just take a weekend and make a character. I have 3 kids. That's not an option.

-----------------

Again, most of the people who complain are rife with "you're just stupid". Well ok... then let me be stupid and still play the game.

The ones who are trying to offer actual reasons... I applaud you... but most of the reasons are simply not true and can easily be debunked. The only reason I've ever seen for them NOT doing it is "we don't want casuals". Well... casuals spend money too.

"

FeistyPeisty wrote:

I understand OP.

I chewed through all this myself (after years still more of a solo player than party/trade mogul), and when you get stuck on a character, this game truly starts to become mighty unappealing, punishing, prohobitive.

When you´re stuck and don´t have much time on your hands, all the "viable" options really aren´t options. Leveling a new character, just to correct some mistakes, will take a couple days. Farming up currency to trade and buy regrets, might take a lot longer than you like. Perhaps you cannot even do so because you somehow got stuck in a bad spot where you cannot equip your stuff anymore.

Heck, even at level 99 and with lots of experience, I sometimes find myself running out of orbs when experimenting on new builds. And THANKS to GGG´s permanent balance rework, I started again at 2.5, needing to find a new build because I was Mjölnering along until 2.4 patch hit the realm and turned this awesome build to crap. Took a break for entire 2.4 duration and only came back to 2.5.

Since then, I spent somewhere between 30-50 ex trying out builds, recoloring chestpieces, buying some enabling uniques, respeccing this and that etc, and the frustration when you eventually go broke is HUGE.

Nobody likes to do stupid mindless farming just to be able to play the game in a way he likes, and with the game being so complex, it can take very long to even find out what that exactly is.

So, I can definitely sympathize with the request. Sometimes all you wanna do is PLAY and not work through the wiki/youtube/forums for hours and hours until you might come up with a nice plan. Not everybody is a Kripparrian who beats the game in theory before actually making a build and playing it.