NZGDC 2016 Developer Presentation: Labyrinth Design

Why labs so long? Just make then smaller and less rooms.

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Sexcalibure wrote:

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SudianX wrote:

I love how one of the conclusions is "Watch how people play and listen to their Feedback"

Spoiler

I did not vote on that poll (that i can remember any ways), and I love the Lab.

Typically people who are pissed off or annoyed about something are the most vocal about it and spend time making polls, complaining publicly about it, etc.

With that said, there are plenty things I'd like to see changed with the Lab, but the overall concept and how it plays, I love it.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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ripnburn69 wrote:

Do they explain why it's just not any fun.

Nope because fun is subjective and some people like the lab and some people don't so you can't make an absolute statement on the matter like that without sounding like you don't understand that basic aspect of reality. It's evident that some players do not enjoy lab, and would rather complain than just get it done.

Some apparently can't manage the social skills needed to get carried 4 times per character and just move on with their lives. So instead some of them have chosen to show off their entitlement and lack of skill issues on the forums.

Some players would have this game turn into a skillless virtual lawn mower simulator.

you can say a significant amount of people would rather lick lead paint than do the lab.

Thanks for sharing this really interesting document!

Hi GGG
Personally, I do not like the lab.
Jump and run is not my game.
Gives us the opportunity to earn the Ascendancy poins over quests.
And last the lab people if they want it.
The reason that the player should have the feeling of hardcore is nevertheless nonsense. If I want to play hardcore then I do that .....

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Dyvain wrote:

Jump and run is not my game.

Nonsensical text emphasized.

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Dyvain wrote:

The reason that the player should have the feeling of hardcore is nevertheless nonsense. If I want to play hardcore then I do that .....

Agreed. Lab should at least give you one or two re-entries, and at best be more like maps where you can carry out your loot once in a while instead of stuffing it into your stash tabs before Izaro fights.

I like lab a lot to be honest
It has the atmosphere and the rng is different from other content
Rewarding in the end feelsgood also

Hi Dan,

Thank you for sharing. It's good that you are continuing to think about these issues.

I'd like to call your attention to this post in particular:

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tubasteve wrote:

Does it really take some of you an hour to do the lab? FFS, if I was that slow I'd hate it too (and no, I don't run a 1000% MS build for lab runs, I just look up the layout and go quickly. Takes like 15 minutes usually, tops).

This post brings up a good question for the Lab developers:
(This question is NOT a response to the quoted poster)

If the layout can be (and is probably expected to be) looked up online to bypass the 'challenge' of navigating it, then why not just display the correct route in the mini map?

And if you intend to make navigating the labyrinth a true challenge, why is each unique instance not completely randomized?

It seems that for people who hang out in reddit and other 3rd party websites, the main 'challenge' involved with navigating the lab is actually not a challenge at all.

Why is there no randomization?

(Turns out there's more than one question in there)

Indeed, this is one very large elephant in the room. A big part of game design is affordances, which include setting and communicating specific expectations to your players. This is a fundamental point of philosophy that you ABSOLUTELY need to sit down and discuss, as a team. I certainly consider it the most important point of the post I am writing now.

That said,

the biggest problem with the Labyrinth currently is its reward structure. There is FAR too much reward at the end, and far too little during the run. This is true of all four Labyrinths. You know why people shut down the game upon dying late in the Labyrinth (or worse, uninstall the game or continue playing but vow never to buy a supporter pack)? Because they feel like they wasted their time. It's not hard to see why they feel this way, given the current reward structure.

The Labyrinth is going to have an "end-reward-heavy" flaw no matter what you do, assuming enchantments and AC points remain at the end of it, but it's currently much worse than it could be, given the huge amount of loot rewards at the end and the shitty amount of rewards during the journey.

Many (perhaps most) people play your game because they enjoy the journey. Decrease the number of Darkshrines which are not visible before attempting an optional gauntlet (since most are disadvantageous anyhow, and ignored by those who did not look up the Labyrinth in advance--see above). Make Silver Chests more rewarding. And make Gold Chests less rewarding. This last part is just as important, if not more so. Give your players a reason to spend more time in the Labyrinth--and, crucially, to be rewarded for doing so, even if they die before killing Izaro #3. Right now, it strongly incentivizes spending as little time as possible in there, and that is exactly what gives many players a bad taste in their mouth, even if their individual reasons for wanting to minimize time spent in there differ by taste.

And it is that bad taste, more than anything else, that you need to address, if you want to reduce the rampant Labyrinth hatred.

I'm sorry your content was not as well-received as you would probably prefer, but there are still steps you can take to improve it. I fully agree with your perspective on iteration. It is far, far superior to trying to "get it right" 100% the first time, in literally every compatible creative endeavor I can think of.

P.S. The lava lighting looks fine. ;)

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Zalhan2 wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

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ripnburn69 wrote:

Do they explain why it's just not any fun.

Nope because fun is subjective and some people like the lab and some people don't so you can't make an absolute statement on the matter like that without sounding like you don't understand that basic aspect of reality. It's evident that some players do not enjoy lab, and would rather complain than just get it done.

Some apparently can't manage the social skills needed to get carried 4 times per character and just move on with their lives. So instead some of them have chosen to show off their entitlement and lack of skill issues on the forums.

Some players would have this game turn into a skillless virtual lawn mower simulator.

you can say a significant amount of people would rather lick lead paint than do the lab.

And you can make childish things up instead of having an argument.

One things for sure, I am tired of seeing skilless plebs complain about the lab because they suck at gaming, using the argument that "600 threads" agree with them (agumentum ad populum) because they lack any sort of actual argument.