Questions about Chaos & Poison Confusion

"

eviL_Bison wrote:

Try a "Added Chaos Damage Support" Gem instead and you'll get a so called double dipping increase. Added Chaos Damage for your initial BV hit and chaos damage which increases the poison itself.

How is this double dipping? If I'm not mistaken this is wrong.

"

ivkoto77777 wrote:

"

eviL_Bison wrote:

Try a "Added Chaos Damage Support" Gem instead and you'll get a so called double dipping increase. Added Chaos Damage for your initial BV hit and chaos damage which increases the poison itself.

How is this double dipping? If I'm not mistaken this is wrong.

Right, it isn't. If, say, added chaos would mean 30% more damage on initial hit, it would also indirectly grant 30% more poison damage. A real double dipping multiplier would mean 30% more on initial hit and 69% more damage for poison.

"

raics wrote:

"

ivkoto77777 wrote:

"

eviL_Bison wrote:

Try a "Added Chaos Damage Support" Gem instead and you'll get a so called double dipping increase. Added Chaos Damage for your initial BV hit and chaos damage which increases the poison itself.

How is this double dipping? If I'm not mistaken this is wrong.

Right, it isn't. If, say, added chaos would mean 30% more damage on initial hit, it would also indirectly grant 30% more poison damage. A real double dipping multiplier would mean 30% more on initial hit and 69% more damage for poison.

How do you calculate the 69%?

"

ivkoto77777 wrote:

How do you calculate the 69%?

100 initial hit * 1.3 'More' Multiplier = 130 IH damage

130 IH damage * 1.3 for double-dip = 169 IH damage * 0.08 for Poison damage.

69% is the overall final multiplier for two 30% More bonuses applying in series.

Don't use any Added X damage GEMS.
Reasons:
1) Very low damage effectiveness.
2) In 2.4v BV got increased damage, so Added gems become more useless in from of BV base damage.

AS for Gems with MORE chaos damage amplifiers, i prefer NOT use them!
Reasons, example:
1 BV hit deals 1000 damage.
Poison damage from it (20/20): (80 * 1.38) * (2 * 1.1) = 242.88
Total: 1242.88 Damage.

When choosing between Spell/Chaos nodes you have to remember that spell node amplifies BV damage and Poison gets more damage from it, while Chaos nodes only amplifies Poison damage.

BV + 10% increased physical/spell nodes: 1100 damage.
Poison damage from it (20/20): (88 * 1.38) * (2 * 1.1) = 267.168
Total: 1367.168 Damage.

BV + 10% increased chaos nodes: 1000 damage.
Poison damage from it (20/20): (80 * (1 + 0.38 +0.1)) * (2 * 1.1) = 260.48
Total: 1260.48 Damage.


BV + 10% more chaos nodes: 1000 damage.
Poison damage from it (20/20): (80 * (1.38) * 1.1)) * (2 * 1.1) = 267.168
Total: 1267.168 Damage.

BV + 50% more chaos nodes: 1000 damage.
Poison damage from it (20/20): (80 * (1.38) * 1.5)) * (2 * 1.1) = 364.32
Total: 1364.32 Damage.

AS you can see 10% physical/spell increase = 50% more chaos damage.

So better use spell/physical GEM damage amplifiers then Chaos GEMs.
Because Chaos GEMs amplifies NOT ALL your DPS but only 8% of it over 2 sec, while spell/phys nodes amplifies entire BV damage, and also poison because 8% of already amplified BV.

Also i have i question about AoE nodes.
On wiki is is said that poison can inherit it if applied by AoE skill.
But on some posts i saw it doesn't double dip for BV+posion!

So which is true? Because you can't see poison damage in tooltip so it is hard to test.

"

1453R wrote:

"

ivkoto77777 wrote:

How do you calculate the 69%?

100 initial hit * 1.3 'More' Multiplier = 130 IH damage

130 IH damage * 1.3 for double-dip = 169 IH damage * 0.08 for Poison damage.

69% is the overall final multiplier for two 30% More bonuses applying in series.

Of course... I just added 30+30.... I'm dumb.

But why don't you consider poison as 0.16 damage, since it ticks 2 times for 8% each?

"

ivkoto77777 wrote:

Of course... I just added 30+30.... I'm dumb.

But why don't you consider poison as 0.16 damage, since it ticks 2 times for 8% each?

In part because I'm also dumb. My bad. But also because actual DPS calculations for Poison can get quite intense, especially as absolutely none of it is reported in a skill's tooltip. That and calculating the per-second DPS for Poison can be useful when you're looking at various types and flavors of duration booster, especially in conjunction with/in place of damage boosters. Trying to 110% optimize Poison is very math-y, especially when doing so for skills other than Blade Vortex.

Surprisingly, there are skills other than Blade Vortex that people use Poison with. Super weird, I know....o_o...

EDIT: Also important, if a somewhat subtle distinction sometimes. Unlike most other games with fixed degeneration 'ticks', PoE seems to honestly use degeneration as degeneration. Poison doesn't deliver two separate ticks; it applies its per-second DPS to any given time it's applied for. A 2.2s Poison from a q20 Poison gem will deal ten percent more poison damage because of that 0.2s, despite it not counting as anything like a regular tick.

Not sure how GGG does it given how much digital systems despise analog variables like that. Imagine they probably just have a really high internal tic rate that isn't reported to us, or otherwise do some ghost math to make discrete variables look like a constant degen. Who knows. Either way, thinking in terms of tic rate for PoE degen is generally incorrect.

"

1453R wrote:

In part because I'm also dumb. My bad. But also because actual DPS calculations for Poison can get quite intense, especially as absolutely none of it is reported in a skill's tooltip.

I was actually really surprised at how easy it was to crunch the numbers, at least for the numbers that I care about, once I thought through it. Sadly, I can't remember how I proved the facts, but I think you should be able to convince yourself too with a bit of mathematical exploration.

The two numbers I was concerned with were:
1. Sustained DPS (you could also call it maximum potential DPS or something); the DPS over an infinite amount of time
2. Time taken to reach sustained DPS

And each of these two numbers is relatively easy to find.

Sustained DPS? Because Poison stacks, attack speed scales Poison the same way it scales Hits. It's a straight multiplier. This allows you to start calculation from tooltip DPS assuming you have negligible elemental damage. Now, because Poison stacks and has its given value in damage per second, duration does a very similar thing. It's a straight multiplier. So, the total increased duration is going to be the same as "more sustained DPS." I don't think there are any sources of flat duration, unless you count Viper Strike; this I prefer to think of as "300% more duration," which translates to a separate more sustained DPS number. This is why many people say that Viper Strike is really good for single target; against enemies with a ton of HP, you get quadruple the DPS. Essentially:
Sustained Poison DPS = tooltip DPS * duration multiplier(s) * 0.16 * DoT modifiers (including double-dip as of Patch 2.4)

Time taken to reach sustained DPS is simply the final duration of one stack. This is easy to puzzle out; you accelerate until such a point that the first stack ends, at which point the next stack is simply replacing (thus sustaining) the DPS. For consistency:
Time taken = 2 seconds * duration multiplier(s)

"

Not sure how GGG does it given how much digital systems despise analog variables like that. Imagine they probably just have a really high internal tic rate that isn't reported to us, or otherwise do some ghost math to make discrete variables look like a constant degen. Who knows. Either way, thinking in terms of tic rate for PoE degen is generally incorrect.

I have heard that the servers run at 60 Frames per Second.