We need reliable melee character, new life based system !

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is a really, really old problem. As in, fleshed out 7 years ago.

Interesting, thanks for linking. Makes me think melee-ranged life characters in poe probably won't get much better than being forced to go uber tank given how GGG has a huge hard on for really high endgame damage.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is a really, really old problem. As in, fleshed out 7 years ago.

Interesting, thanks for linking. Makes me think melee-ranged life characters in poe probably won't get much better than being forced to go uber tank given how GGG has a huge hard on for really high endgame damage.

It's a little bit less that, and a little bit more GGG's hard-on for ranged AoE. Melee having to endure a couple seconds of enemy face time is an issue because ranged has all the tools it needs to prevent any amount of enemy face time; they're all dead before they can get close.

I'm far more in favor of nerfing archer AoE than archer damage per hit. Both could technically work, but firing a single arrow to drop one enemy feels a lot better than firing a massive barrage of arrows and every enemy hit is still standing.

Nerfing ranged attack/cast speed would also work though. Would probably feel better for spells.

The main problem is that because of this human reaction time, ranger have a massive advantage over melee because not only they have the time to read the attack but they also have more space to evade when melee are right next to it.

One horrible design in this game was that they made bows as strong as 2H (with the ability to wear a quiver on top of it) while having more space to fight and the ability to get the same passives as melee.

They did fix a bit of this with the introduction of Arenas where you can't really move that well but still, ranger and caster have he ability to kite wich give them an extraordinary amount of extra survivability.

Back to my tank build, the only reason i'm able to do "good" damages (it's quite fast but not as broken as some actual builds) is because I cheese the game with Earthquake, Varunastra (to maximize the passives), Legacy voidhearth and Blashpemy + Vulnerability.

If you try to replicate my build in league with some other weapons combo, your damages will be incredibly low (as they should be with that much investment into tankiness). The main problem I see there is that you are "forced" to go that way (stacking as much defenses as you can) if you want to have a chance to survive. And even with that much investment, you will probably die at some point because of the lack of damages on the long term.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Energy Shield: The core problem here is that it's been designed primarily as an alternative, rather than a supplement, to Life. Every other defense in the game is designed as a supplement, so ES has naturally become better than the other defenses. With Chaos Inoculation this makes sense, but it's spread to pretty much everything ES... and really, we're not going to see defense balance unless CI is more of a "cute" option. My suggestions:
* Change Zealot's Oath to "Life Regeneration applies to Energy Shield as well as Life."
* Change Ghost Reaver to "Mana Leech applies to Energy Shield as well as Mana." (This breaks Vaal Pact for CI characters; Life base or GTFO.)

I like both of those suggestions, but I'd actually make one tweak: Zealot's Oath also causes 50% of ALL damage to bypass energy shield (including dropping chaos down from 100% bypass). This cements Zealot's Oath as a true life+ES function while causing CI and LL to depend more on leech and recharge (the latter of which people seem to ignore nowadays, despite the fact that it should be a core mechanic of ES). It also gives that form of Zealot's Oath a potential 'downside', something most Keystones are supposed to have.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Armour: I think this defensive mechanic is well-designed.

I do too, with one glaring exception: armor-type builds need *some* kinda protection vs elemental. It doesn't have to be huge by any stretch, but there needs to be something, that downside of armor is just too heavy (especially for those that can't block). I personally think endurance charges should pick up that slack, granting something like '2.5% less elemental damage taken per charge' instead of the relatively-useless all resist they provide now.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Evasion: I don't think this mechanic is particularly well-designed. Unlike other defenses, Evasion doesn't change what types of telegraphs one has to avoid to prevent their death; if something has only a 40% chance to kill you, you still need to avoid it 100% of the time. This means that, unlike the other defenses, Evasion tends not to impact positioning, with players continuing to position as if they had no defenses whatsoever. This isn't quite true with numerous small hits, but that's exactly the type of thing you just heal through anyway (flask, leech or regen). Basically, evasion serves as a recovery supplement, not a proper death avoider, and therefore is best in combination with Armour or ES than by itself. I think evasion, especially pure evasion, should be buffed but I have no concrete suggestion how.

That's pretty much the issue with evasion, and the main problem is you can't really access anything to resolve it *in the tree*. Evading most blows is alright, but it doesn't do anything if the one that gets through kills you... most pure EV builds either need a massive life pool (which GGG is adamant not to provide to the right side of the tree) or mechs like lightning coil or kintsugi or enfeeble to pick up the slack. And that's all well and good to have that supplementary mech required, except... it doesn't exist in the tree. That mitigation against 'the hit that gets through' is too heavily gated behind uniques or specific gem setups. There needs to be some widely-accessible mechanic that would allow any EV-user, not just one with LC or kintsugi or cursing ability, to actually reduce damage occasionally, like a Keystone. Actually, while writing this, I came up with an idea for one such stone:

Keystone - Phase Shift:

-While Phasing, you take 25% less (physical?) damage from attacks. Taking a Savage hit while Phasing will dispel and prevent Phasing for 6 seconds.

-Your Armor cannot exceed 75% of your Evasion Rating. Your Maximum Energy Shield cannot exceed 20% of your Evasion Rating.

A savage hit is a hit that removes at least 15% of your maximum life.



Phasing is a mechanic available quite readily to anyone, most readily to evasion/dodge styles... all it takes is a flask or numerous mechanics from uniques or ascendancies (or phase run, if that actually counts as true phasing... i'm not sure). Widely available without needing to give up something as game-changing as a chest piece.

(the second line is in there to isolate the effect to evasion or evasion hybrid playstyles... it'll still be usable with ev/es or non-IR armor/ev, but it won't be viable with styles that don't prioritize evasion)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This is a really, really old problem. As in, fleshed out 7 years ago.

Interesting, thanks for linking. Makes me think melee-ranged life characters in poe probably won't get much better than being forced to go uber tank given how GGG has a huge hard on for really high endgame damage.

It's a little bit less that, and a little bit more GGG's hard-on for ranged AoE. Melee having to endure a couple seconds of enemy face time is an issue because ranged has all the tools it needs to prevent any amount of enemy face time; they're all dead before they can get close.

I'm far more in favor of nerfing archer AoE than archer damage per hit. Both could technically work, but firing a single arrow to drop one enemy feels a lot better than firing a massive barrage of arrows and every enemy hit is still standing.

Nerfing ranged attack/cast speed would also work though. Would probably feel better for spells.

What a terrible suggestion it's like you have zero experience in CI when doing high end content lmao like do you have any single how hard they hit for? Probably not it's actually quite funny.

LOL GIVE IT TO LIFE BASED When they will DIE just as fast as a CI user without VP like I really really fucking don't think you have any experience in doing high end content right now it's actually pisses me off because you say shit without experience.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Interesting, thanks for linking. Makes me think melee-ranged life characters in poe probably won't get much better than being forced to go uber tank given how GGG has a huge hard on for really high endgame damage.

It's a little bit less that, and a little bit more GGG's hard-on for ranged AoE. Melee having to endure a couple seconds of enemy face time is an issue because ranged has all the tools it needs to prevent any amount of enemy face time; they're all dead before they can get close.

I'm far more in favor of nerfing archer AoE than archer damage per hit. Both could technically work, but firing a single arrow to drop one enemy feels a lot better than firing a massive barrage of arrows and every enemy hit is still standing.

Nerfing ranged attack/cast speed would also work though. Would probably feel better for spells.

What a terrible suggestion it's like you have zero experience in CI when doing high end content lmao like do you have any single how hard they hit for? Probably not it's actually quite funny.

LOL GIVE IT TO LIFE BASED When they will DIE just as fast as a CI user without VP like I really really fucking don't think you have any experience in doing high end content right now it's actually pisses me off because you say shit without experience.

Pretty sure you quoted the wrong post of mine.

I readily admit no high-end experience. I've watched a lot of high-end experience on Twitch, though. I'm more of a spectator than a player. Entirely, recently. Doesn't mean I haven't thought about this shit.

I'll also readily admit that was probably a bad suggestion. I think VP is overpowered shit which shouldn't be in the game whatsoever. That said, it'd be pretty silly to ensure Life had access to overpowered shit which shouldn't be in the game whatsoever, while CI didn't. I guess if VP is here to stay, I'd change VP to "Leech applies instantly" (so including mana leech - fuck it why not) in combination with my suggestion for Ghost Reaver.

Haven't thought? Dude you're trying to suggest shit when you've never tried the fucking content things hit WAY too hard is that so hard to understand? WITH reflect WITH things hitting 8k+ PER fucking hit.

Until they you know nerf the damage from monsters etc which they don't in addition to a multi load of complaints about VP they aren't going to fuck with it what pisses me off is that you keep suggesting shit WHEN YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT.

There used to be downsides to ES: no leech, no regen, no pots. A third of those downsides have been removed over the years, for some mysterious reason. The no pots thing gets less and less relevant as well thanks to insane utility pots.

I'm really not sure anymore how to fix the problem without simply making life king again. Whichever defense has most EHP simply wins. If we buff mitigation for life, it will just flat out be better than ES.

One quick thought: What if Vaal Pact wouldn't work with ES ? Also those one-shot troll mechanics that can only be survived with over 9000 EHP obviously need to go.

Meanwhile, I'm face-tanking Uber Izaro with 3 curses on my face, while having only 6,6k hp, armor and some endu charges. Not saying that this is comparable to ES (which should clearly be dealt with), but armor isn't as useless as some people claim. :v

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Perq wrote:

Meanwhile, I'm face-tanking Uber Izaro with 3 curses on my face, while having only 6,6k hp, armor and some endu charges. Not saying that this is comparable to ES (which should clearly be dealt with), but armor isn't as useless as some people claim. :v

It is. Face some elemental damage or chaos damage and you are toast. Also, not sure how much armor you have, but if you have a lot, all you can do is Uber izaro or just the physical damage bosses, if you have too little even Uber izaro will kill you with 6,6k life in that scenario you mention. All it takes is a wave slash. Getting more HP is always better than getting more armor.

But again, you play softcore, no need to think things through there. Do whatever and if you die a few times, who cares? Just respawn in the nearest checkpoint.