Evasion/Dodge/Raider improvements

With capped dodge and block you only have a 6.25% chance to take damage from a hit, and this applies before your other forms of mitigation like evasion. That is the logic for the penalty.

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Spoiler

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Ceryneian wrote:

GGG needs to remove block penalty from Acro. One of the worst balance changes in the history of PoE that is still in this game for 2 years.

I am still amused this change has stayed in the game for so long. Every patch I keep waiting and watching from the sideline to see how long GGG wants to keep up their silly charade.

And of course, every patch since Dec'14 I have continued to be impressed.

This is an easy way to help EV life melee builds tremendously.

Even easier is just make Raider able to remove the penalty.

I'm not even asking for Ondar's Guile to be fixed. But without block you will not survive as EV melee.

When penalty was introduced the hardest bosses in the game were 1.3 Uber Atziri and T14 Palace Dominus.

That's it.

We now have TWO WHOLE levels of bosses that make Uber Atziri look easy and Palace Dominus like a soft pillow.

In addition, GGG increased monster damage.

Then they buffed AR formula.

Then they increased monster life.

Still Acro has the block penalty. What is the logic for this?

The only builds this is hurting are EV life melee builds which somehow GGG still thinks are OP despite EV life melee lying bleeding in the gutter for about a year and a half now.

See, this is what I don't get: "balancing" like keeping CoC OP for several years, BV, BF, poison/bleed, buffing Tornado Shot, adding OP bow uniques like RotC. Yet somehow still insisting on keeping block penalty on Acro?

Mmmkay. I just can't fathom how a professional gaming company balances like this.

This is why I don't blame anyone playing fat cat CI BV, or just playing a ranged build.

With capped dodge and block you only have a 6.25% chance to take damage from a hit, and this applies before your other forms of mitigation like evasion. That is the logic for the penalty.

while capped dodge and block was a bit OP , GGG since then nerfed block on tree skill tree so even without penalty on Acro it wouldnt be so easy to keep both maxed without Rumi's flask. Also keep in mind we still have unblockable and undodgeable mechanics in game ( voletile,DD,degens like dareso swords) etc.
If i had a choice to have 5k hp build with 75% dodge and 75% block vs 75% dodge or block and either 7k hp or lets say 20% dmg reduction when i actually get hit ( like kintsugi) i would choose second option every time.

They way i see it , non telegraphed attacks/1-shots that should be avoided mechanicly by every1
shouldnt be doing so much dmg that eva build with 5k hp dies instantly if it gets hit. I understand that part of the game is to anticipate the dmg so you have your vall grace, fortify and your basalt etc. but t16 bosses have so much hp that you cant have your vall grace and basalt up 24/7 throu whole fight (lets not bring pathfinder into the mix). So yeah something should be done #dicksoutforEvasion

evasion has nothing to do vs shaper - there is no phys damage in that fight.

it is all elemental stuff that spell dodge actually works vs.

guardians are the same stuff - attacks are elemental or hybrid and eva (again) works better vs this stuff than armor.

issue with EV is that people want PURE avoidance and that doesnt work and wont work ever. ggg created very diverse and complex defensive layers that are meant to be mixed.

issue is that a) players do not understand that b) dps is valued. defences are of secondary importance thus brittle characters that die often and blame that on hot garbage c) CI is just plain better and CI plus instant leevh forces ggg into spike damage

people with good mechanical skill and proper game understanding will kill shaper with properly ev-based build no problem. people that have neither of these attributes should settle on farming low end maps


acro plus block would have been great combo even if both were capped at 50%. but players somewhat want a risk free experience. game that allows immortal characters is no longer a game. play well and you wont die.

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sidtherat wrote:

evasion has nothing to do vs shaper - there is no phys damage in that fight.

it is all elemental stuff that spell dodge actually works vs.

First of all since your last post no1 has brought up shaper , so why even mention that ?
Second of all shapers auto attack is physical to my knowledge , so as long as you're in melee range there is a physical dmg in this fight - info from poedb.tw so not sure if its 100% accurate

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guardians are the same stuff - attacks are elemental or hybrid and eva (again) works better vs this stuff than armor.

Again from poedb info Chimera is entirely physical + bleed (based on physical)
Phoenixes autoattack is physical , Minotaurs autoattack is 30% converted to lightning and finaly Hydra is 50% phys 50% cold.

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issue with EV is that people want PURE avoidance and that doesnt work and wont work ever. ggg created very diverse and complex defensive layers that are meant to be mixed.

thats not my intention and nowhere in my original post i said something like that i even specificly mentioned in my previous post how flawed it is to rely on even only something like 6.25 % chance to get hit , because when you get hit you will die.

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issue is that a) players do not understand that b) dps is valued. defences are of secondary importance thus brittle characters that die often and blame that on hot garbage c) CI is just plain better and CI plus instant leevh forces ggg into spike damage

a) blame canada
b) i dont believe you should spend more passive points on defense not to die just because you are on the right side of tree
c) CI is CI but even armor builds - simply because you're on left side of tree have more strenght and better/ more accesible life nodes etc. you are less prone to 1 shots

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people with good mechanical skill and proper game understanding will kill shaper with properly ev-based build no problem. people that have neither of these attributes should settle on farming low end maps

again who said anything about shaper - IF the Thread name was pls fix evasion cause i can't kill shaper i would understand that but no1 said that .....

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acro plus block would have been great combo even if both were capped at 50%. but players somewhat want a risk free experience. game that allows immortal characters is no longer a game. play well and you wont die.

Even if they were capped at 99% and you could cap both and have 0,1% of geting hit - if once you get hit you die instantly then its just a matter of time when RNG rolls that 0,1%. As i said before problem is regular/average and spike dmg aswell was increased but we still either avoid it all or die in 1 hit.

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Grzybas2 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

you are wrong.

no , you are wrong.

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Even if totem, he does take some hit, saying that defense matters is irrelevant is putting a lot of bad faith ....

no idea what you said there.

Keep your life vs CI bullshit out of this thread you're just spamming at this point - go watch some streamers instead.

Great, so I show you with a very easy explanation ( because it is very simple ) why you are completely amiss, and all you have to say is "no you are wrong" ?
Sounds like how kids that just learnt how to speak argue with eachother, good job.

No idea what I said ? no point talking to you if you do not understand the language at all I guess, oh well.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Take away his totem and tell ziz to melee that boss and it's a different story. Chimera can be beaten as melee but compared to that totem build for example it's like eating soup with a fork.

He was literally standing still to see if Chimera would damage him, and that had little to no effect.
Too bad you have no idea what you're talking about heh.

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eragon1111 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

This is why I said "average hit", I don't consider the new fancy red bosses as average.

But I saw som streams having no problems against Chimera but for the bleeding dog, Ziz's stream for example ... life based, he did not die, and I dont remember him using ToH or being permanently under basalt.
And Chimera dealt almost no damage to him.

So you have no experience yourself and want to be a part of that conversation ? WTF ?

GTHO and feel the pain with own skin...

I have not tried the top tier maps and the new bosses, so what ?
What is your experience ?
*quick look qt the profile .....*
/lol
( but oh wait actually ... if you even had some, it would not matter actually )

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Yeah melee evasion is in terrible shape. It's fine for low to mid-tier maps (like any other build I guess), but high-end maps it takes a beating. And takes it HARD.

Fixed that for you :<.
If you only stay in the pure dext sector, you will be lacking some life and end charges compared to full juggs, that is a thing, but evasion itself isn't much.
People that think that since they barely get hit thanks to evasion, need no basalt / arctic armor / coil or cloak of flame / ToH / end charges / curses will die eventually.
But that isn't just an evasion matter.
Actually I just noticed that sid mentioned it too.

Physical spells are the second thing that screws evasion in some cases, and not armor, that is a problem. I would be curious to know what GGG's stance is on that ... ( evasion does not become weaker against stronger hit so it needs a drawback ? That would be kinda ridiculous ).

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sidtherat wrote:

evasion has nothing to do vs shaper - there is no phys damage in that fight.

it is all elemental stuff that spell dodge actually works vs.

guardians are the same stuff - attacks are elemental or hybrid and eva (again) works better vs this stuff than armor.

issue with EV is that people want PURE avoidance and that doesnt work and wont work ever. ggg created very diverse and complex defen
sive layers that are meant to be mixed.

issue is that a) players do not understand that b) dps is valued. defences are of secondary importance thus brittle characters that die often and blame that on hot garbage c) CI is just plain better and CI plus instant leevh forces ggg into spike damage

people with good mechanical skill and proper game understanding will kill shaper with properly ev-based build no problem. people that have neither of these attributes should settle on farming low end maps


acro plus block would have been great combo even if both were capped at 50%. but players somewhat want a risk free experience. game that allows immortal characters is no longer a game. play well and you wont die.

Umm dude, Shaper has his attacks, and his slam - so obviously evasion is going to play here. Don't know why you said it doesn't, but it does, especially as EV melee because you WILL have to deal with his attacks and slam.

Now I'm not saying it is impossible to do those fight for EV. Ofc not, EV ranged can do it easily. What I'm saying is EV melee is literally in the lowest tier of builds at the moment and it will be WAY harder for an EV melee build than any other build.

Also, if I want to stack as much damage avoidance as I can as an EV LIFE MELEE build - I need to be able to do that. In fact, I SHOULD be able to get the highest damage avoidance in the game.

Why? Ok let me show you this. If you can understand this you will understand the whole problem with damage avoidance in PoE and why EV life melee is so bad.


Compare these 3 ways to build:


1. CI with 12K+ ES, high damage skill, and 75/75 block. Ok. Can also add Vaal Grace. k.


2. RANGED bow build with 75/75 dodges. And high life thanks to ability to wear Kaom's and still use a single skill (TS) which has both superb AOE and superb single target.

Ok.

3. AR-side build with high ECs which you cannot get as EV, +LC+Fortify mitigation build with high life which STILL can stack very high blocks and blind for some evasion. Ok. This is something people forget when trying to compare AR vs EV - like as if an AR build cannot get high damage avoidance - it easily can.


You see the problem? They all have great damage avoidance, much higher HP, and much better defenses by either being ranged or naturally will have far better mitigation than you. For most of these their DPS will also be higher than yours.

And here is the EV melee: with less life, similar damage avoidance, higher risk by being melee, and lower mitigation than all these builds.

Unless you somehow have access to crazy damage, the answer ofc is you will not play such a build.

Look man, if you want to argue more we can argue until the cows come home. But I've honestly tried to take EV life melee as far as I can, and I know where it will hit a wall. You can try and do your hybrid shenanigans (you will soon realize your mitigation will never be enough to compensate for your life pool, and to do so you will have to build on the AR-side for more life and more mitigation), or you can try and stack as much damage avoidance as you can (which as I've argued other builds can get similar to, or a little less and then vastly outweigh the discrepancy with more attractive benefits).

If you don't believe me, what you could do is try and build an EV life melee build and test it on the below maps:
- Alluring Abyss
- Vaal Temple
- Colosseum
- Core
- T16 Guardians
- Vinktar's Square

And then test using one of the 3 types of builds I mention above and compare the difference.

Block won't save you from getting one shot any more than dodge or evasion does. There will still be the occasional hit that gets through and without any actual mitigation, you gonna die.

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Block won't save you from getting one shot any more than dodge or evasion does. There will still be the occasional hit that gets through and without any actual mitigation, you gonna die.

Well as Melee you have some Echarges, because they are easy to get and likely Fortify anyway. Since you are very safe vs. crits that is already one danger less, but still insanely rolled maps can be painful, but than again for melee in general because damage can be ridicolous high.

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Umm dude, Shaper has his attacks, and his slam - so obviously evasion is going to play here. Don't know why you said it doesn't, but it does, especially as EV melee because you WILL have to deal with his attacks and slam.

Well unless you straight out die from this attacks (melee attack shouldn't kill, the slam... not sure if it does it should be avoidable), you will take a lot less damage from them. Attacks are usually a non-issue, because they connect rarely enough.

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3. AR-side build with high ECs which you cannot get as EV, +LC+Fortify mitigation build with high life which STILL can stack very high blocks and blind for some evasion. Ok. This is something people forget when trying to compare AR vs EV - like as if an AR build cannot get high damage avoidance - it easily can.

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And here is the EV melee: with less life, similar damage avoidance, higher risk by being melee, and lower mitigation than all these builds.

An Evasion Melee should have 4 or 5 Endurance Charges. This is not as much as a Juggernaut, but enough to reduce damage by a nice margin. Adding a Basalt Flask he will already have 40% physical damage reduction. The issue is that melee might run out of the flask. But Fortify provides another layer, but since its multiplicative it doesn't benefit from having other damage reductions.

And as soon as the Eva melee doesn't die to one hit, he likely takes a lot less damage overall. Juggernauts again might be the exception with potentially 10 Endurance Charges, Soul of Steel and a lot of armor. But Berserkers or Slayers will not have much better Mitigation. Gladiator maybe due to high block.

For a controlled fight were Evasion chars survive one hit they can outperform armor in terms of avoided damage. The other question is can they get life back as efficient after taking that hit. Slayer and Berserker both have decent Leech (although the Overkill leech is not that beneficial here). Technically an Evasion Melee can be Slayer if he is 2h, but it is more likely that he is either Gladiator, Raider or Pathfinder.

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If you don't believe me, what you could do is try and build an EV life melee build and test it on the below maps:
- Alluring Abyss
- Vaal Temple
- Colosseum
- Core
- T16 Guardians
- Vinktar's Square

Alluring Abyss and Vinktar might go to Evasion. Core... it's incredible messy, but after someone defeated Uber with 3k HP just to proof its possible, it might be doable. Although most evasion chars would use Reave or Lacerate, so they do have a range advantage in those circumstances, although for Atziri you could just use Doulstrike... if it would deal more damage than Lacerate.

Elemental Damage, exspecially Elemental Attacks always favor evasion. Of course the issue with the low HP amounts of the left side hurts Evasion, but that isn't necessarily connected to the defense, its more the bad tree layout that basically forces all life based chars to the scion wheel. Colosseum likely favors Armor. Since Core is the highest map I ever tried (and failed :P because I had dual boss) I can't say much about Guardians or Vaal Temple.

But actually one of the most terrible bosses for Evasion chars is Oversoul. Not sure which maps she now inhabits, used to be Observatory or Maze, she makes rocks fall which is a physical spell or even secondary damage, so its not evadeable and might even be undodgeable. The same goes for Beartrap, not a Spell and not an Attack so it always hits (although Bear Trap is at least avoidable). For the rest it always only matters if you survive one hit. If that is the case and you are not in a messy combat situation (where barely surviving means you die to the next hit from something else) you have a not that much worse time than armor and you actually might be better than them.

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GGG needs to remove block penalty from Acro. One of the worst balance changes in the history of PoE that is still in this game for 2 years.

I would take another approach. The penalty is fine, since this would be too many layers of defense. But what they wanted to do was to remove high dodge block capped chars. So a maybe better solution would be to reduce the max block chance to 50%. 50% would be a lot less than the old 75% and would not punish Dualwielding that much. Even going down to a max block of 40% would likely be still better than 30% less block chance.

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Ceryneian wrote:

Umm dude, Shaper has his attacks, and his slam - so obviously evasion is going to play here. Don't know why you said it doesn't, but it does, especially as EV melee because you WILL have to deal with his attacks and slam.

Now I'm not saying it is impossible to do those fight for EV. Ofc not, EV ranged can do it easily. What I'm saying is EV melee is literally in the lowest tier of builds at the moment and it will be WAY harder for an EV melee build than any other build.

Also, if I want to stack as much damage avoidance as I can as an EV LIFE MELEE build - I need to be able to do that. In fact, I SHOULD be able to get the highest damage avoidance in the game.

Why? Ok let me show you this. If you can understand this you will understand the whole problem with damage avoidance in PoE and why EV life melee is so bad.


Compare these 3 ways to build:


1. CI with 12K+ ES, high damage skill, and 75/75 block. Ok. Can also add Vaal Grace. k.


2. RANGED bow build with 75/75 dodges. And high life thanks to ability to wear Kaom's and still use a single skill (TS) which has both superb AOE and superb single target.

Ok.

3. AR-side build with high ECs which you cannot get as EV, +LC+Fortify mitigation build with high life which STILL can stack very high blocks and blind for some evasion. Ok. This is something people forget when trying to compare AR vs EV - like as if an AR build cannot get high damage avoidance - it easily can.


You see the problem? They all have great damage avoidance, much higher HP, and much better defenses by either being ranged or naturally will have far better mitigation than you. For most of these their DPS will also be higher than yours.

And here is the EV melee: with less life, similar damage avoidance, higher risk by being melee, and lower mitigation than all these builds.

Unless you somehow have access to crazy damage, the answer ofc is you will not play such a build.

Look man, if you want to argue more we can argue until the cows come home. But I've honestly tried to take EV life melee as far as I can, and I know where it will hit a wall. You can try and do your hybrid shenanigans (you will soon realize your mitigation will never be enough to compensate for your life pool, and to do so you will have to build on the AR-side for more life and more mitigation), or you can try and stack as much damage avoidance as you can (which as I've argued other builds can get similar to, or a little less and then vastly outweigh the discrepancy with more attractive benefits).

If you don't believe me, what you could do is try and build an EV life melee build and test it on the below maps:
- Alluring Abyss
- Vaal Temple
- Colosseum
- Core
- T16 Guardians
- Vinktar's Square

And then test using one of the 3 types of builds I mention above and compare the difference.

what i see is you trying to compare CI (broken atm due to instant leech and the Sponge Effect) and two well rounded characters to one-dimensional glass (pure EV)

result is ofc obvious and no surprise to anyone

better question is: why do you want to build PURE avoidance character in game that has rules like it has? as a challenge? because you are stubborn and want to make rules instead of game designer?

right side of the tree has marginally less life (+less str but that is obvious) and is meant to be played and built DIFFERENTLY. if you want to 'pull a marauder on a shadow' youll fail. many people tried and all failed. but they do not undertstand why.

reason is simple - shadow is life/es class and shadow works exceptionally well as a hybrid (you call it shenanigans - i call it very tanky and viable build capable of T15 no problem). it ofc has its price (namely blood rage is a pain to run and that alone - less deeps - is a reason to call it thrash) but it works and it works well

ranger can easily get to marauder, get 6 end charges, basalt, flask duration, granite, acro and phase acro and get hit VERY rarely yet be prepared for that. and it is still and foremost the elemental damage that is dangerous..

it ofc cuts the precious deeps and that is unacceptable, i understand

you complain about melee in general. true - there are few BS mechanics that have no place in a well designed game (DD, volatile, obelisks) but general survivability is rather.. ok. melee cannot facetank 99% stuff (that imho it should after considerable investment) but it is rather safe style to play. tedious and slow but safe.


complaining about PURE EV not being viable is like complaining that the Ferrari you've bought is bad at ploughing fields..

i do not expect any changes to evasion, block, dodge any time soon - the math you can do (average damage over time, avoided/mitigated etc) will show you that over long period of time all these styles are just as good with DELIBERATE drawbacks built into each one.

the outlier is CI + instant leech. the Sponge. the reason why we have BS spike damage. if and when CI is dealt with remains unknown.

reason some complain is the 'i want it all' mentality - people want block. and they want 75% block 'because it is best'. so they fixate on the block and ignore other stuff. yet the most effective is getting moderate quantity of all layers, instead of stacking one and then complaining that 4.1k hp is not enough. sure it isnt - but noone forced you to pick only that. choices are to be made wisely.


NOTE: there is a theory circulating around that map bosses (and bosses in general) have very high crit chance making 'crits' the majority of hits they deal. if this is true it HEAVILY favours EV vs attack bosses. it ofc wont stop one shot - but there are several tools available to mitigate damage even if the full hit connects.

NOTE2: can you please provide trees and rough description of gear for your example characters no 1 2 3 and EV? i would NOT play char 2 ever. my archers have 5 EC AND Acro AND EV AND other stuff. just like melee EV should.

Ifs, buts, maybes, and I thinks.

Come on guys. Let's stop with the hypotheticals and talk with facts.

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better question is: why do you want to build PURE avoidance character in game that has rules like it has? as a challenge? because you are stubborn and want to make rules instead of game designer?

So you are basically saying pure avoidance is not playable?

It's not a question of why I want to - it's a question of what works. And I know pure avoidance will take you the furthest.

You want to add mitigation and I'm saying it's fine - but don't expect it to take you far.

That's why I ask you Sid have you tried those maps on your hybrid EV mitigation melee? And ofc you avoid answering as usual.

One day you will realize your life pool is too small to compensate AND you cannot get enough mitigation compared to an AR build.

Maybe you don't see how high the damage in this game can get. Just experiment and try the maps I've listed with an EV melee build.

It's easy to watch someone else's video and start with your conjecture and hypothesizing on forums, but until you've actually tried those maps YOURSELF you are talking air.

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...should have 4 or 5 Endurance Charges ... Adding a Basalt Flask .. But Fortify ...

Add this, add that, also this... Yeah man, at that point you will realize you should be building an AR guy who has access to higher life on his side of the tree, better mitigation, and can still get high/max blocks, and can have good evasion with Blind.

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Alluring Abyss and Vinktar might go to Evasion

No, they certainly do not go to evasion.

No way, now that Ondar's Guile was nerfed and Acro has a block penalty. Why don't you try these maps instead of pulling random guesses from the air?

I don't even know how you think Vinktar is good for Evasion

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Core... it's incredible messy, but after someone defeated Uber 3k HP just to proof its possible,

???, Core has nothing to do with Uber.

3K HP on Uber? Sure, maybe you could do Uber Atziri with 3k HP and Ondar's Guile back in the day.

But there is no way you can do full Uber run with 3k HP. No way, no how. An definitely no way after those nerfs to Ondar's and Acro.


Maannnn, I don't like to be harsh but some of you forum warriors need to get off your high horses and stop spewing stuff on forums pretending you know what you are talking about.