Evasion/Dodge/Raider improvements

Couple of ideas to bring evasion/dodge builds a bit closer to CI which is currently "meta".

Imo evasion builds need something like Kintsugi "20% less Damage taken if you have not been Hit Recently" to be reliable and not die to random 1-shots that seem to be more and more common in atlas.

Turn Kintsugi's "20% less Damage taken if you have not been Hit Recently" into a Keyword - call it whatever you want - preparation/awareness/shadowstep/veil/serpent stance anything. Turn it into a keyword(so you can't stack it) and allow different sources of this.

-Keystone , grants "whatever the name" and a downside - i was thinking of somekind of offensive downside as you have to be constantly "focused" so maybe attack speed penalty or dmg penalty (i'm sure devs could come up with something more creative). Keep in mind the downside shouldn't be really punishing as this mechanic isn't as powerful as Fortify which is accesible to most builds.

-Add "whatever the name" to RAIDER ascendancy - maybe add it to Avatar of Veil as a "while phasing" mechanic so it goes "20% less Damage taken while phasing if you have not been Hit Recently"
RAIDER lacks a Unique stat/mechanic that could adress this.

Another quality of life for Raider could be "loose only half of your frenzy charges when timer runs out and reset the timer" This way you might keep some charges during certain boss fights that take long to start like vaal , izaro etc.

Let's discuss.


Last bumped on Oct 1, 2016, 8:22:16 AM
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Raider needs some improvements for sure. I'd be happy if I could play in a party and be able to maintain frenzy charges. Make the chance at a frenzy charge apply to kills other people get like flask charges. I didn't realize I was making a solo build when I chose it. Adding a frenzy charge on hit chance would work too and help with bosses.
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I think that even more then reason to pick Raider you need a reason to go right side of the tree - i would like to see statistics on ppl in top 100 HC ladder picking keystones like CI vs Acrobatics.
On the other hand we have seen how many Pathfinders we have this league vs raiders/deadeyes but imho thats just flasks+pathfinder being on another level.
Comparing evasion and CI ? Oo what ?

It's like comparing BM and accuracy, it makes no sense.

Raider does have some very very strong nodes, I am loving the perma ( or almost ) status ailment immunity, seriously.

Some small boost to keep up frenzy charges could be nice, because the other branches are more interesting than the frenzy one ( which isn't fancy in the slightest ).

So maybe make the frenzy side more "unique" and fancy ?
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Sep 25, 2016, 8:31:17 AM
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Fruz wrote:
Comparing evasion and CI ? Oo what ?

It's like comparing BM and accuracy, it makes no sense.



PoE has 3 defense types Armor/Evasion/Energy Shield (CI or low life) comparing those 3 makes perfect sense especialy when GGG adds mechanics to the game that 1 of those 3 defense types can bypass/negate while other 2 get 1-shot
No it doesn't.

ES is a buffer.
Evasion is a secondary defense, the second layer.

It's like comparing life and armour.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Ok so its Effective health pool + defense/mitigation
so you have either X Life + X mitigation (armor/evasion) or Ci which is another level of Effective life pool + 0 mitigation. GGG do balance around that you can see that on item affixes , skill tree nodes etc. so it is valid to compare those and if you dont see that then i guess we're playing 2 different games.
ES is balanced like it has been since closed beta days, before Ghost Reaver

it is balanced WITHOUT leech! it is a buffer (HUGE one) that goes down and then has to be replenished over time. very neat idea - soaks damage like armor and prevents it (direct damage to health) like evasion. but due to leech it replaces life completely and functions like a primary pool

ive did experiments when i did not use leech in any form while playing CI and hybrid and it already can farm uber lab and red maps no problem..

what has changed is our damage that is like 20x of what we had in closed beta (fireball with 5k dps was 'uber glass'!'), there are FAR more sources of leech - these two together are simply BETTER option to what has been initially designed (and works even today!) so noone cares about anything but the best one.
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Grzybas2 wrote:
Ok so its Effective health pool + defense/mitigation
so you have either X Life + X mitigation (armor/evasion) or Ci which is another level of Effective life pool + 0 mitigation. GGG do balance around that you can see that on item affixes , skill tree nodes etc. so it is valid to compare those and if you dont see that then i guess we're playing 2 different games.


It is pretty easy to get at least ~20 % evasion with CI to be honest, and after that you can have a shield which is another secondary layer ( I am speaking about the block chances here ).

So no, you cannot just compare evasion and ES the same way.
Evasion bonuses have diminishing returns.
ES just doesn't, it's linear, and the threshold that you can reach ( meaning surviving huge hits ) are very significant, much, much, much much much more than what a very very high evasion value will do.
Plus you can bump evasion from flasks, very significantly ... you cannot do that with ES.

And as Sid said, leech makes big buffer the way to facetank everything with vinktar / VP + very high dps.


Now, what you could compare ( and what would make more sense ), is CI and Acro + phase Acro, and indirectly : Life vs ES.



SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Sep 25, 2016, 1:48:04 PM
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Fruz wrote:
No it doesn't.

ES is a buffer.
Evasion is a secondary defense, the second layer.

It's like comparing life and armour.


Actually comparing CI to Acrobatics makes a lot of sense.

One is a Keystone purposed for Es, the other for Evasion.

And while CI basically removes the only real downside that ES has (being bypassed by Chaos Damage) Acrobatics not only doesn't remove Acrobatics might even be a major downside overall.

If you have 30% Block from Dualwielding, Acrobatics essentially removes 18% of that Block and gives you 30% Dodge. Which is cool but it also halfs your armor and es, which would allow you to use hybrid builds (because honestly Evasion over 50% isn't useful unless you reach 67%), it doesn't fix any of your downsides. The only thing that salvages Acrobatics is Phase Acrobatics... which shouldn't be a Keystone, because it isn't a tradeoff in anyway. It is more like Infused Shield. But to be perfectly fair. the 10% Dodge Chance and Phase Acrobatics should be part of Acrobatics entirely. Because right now it is hard to judge that you have to invest 5 Points for it.

Acrobatics basically makes Evasion chars better at things they are already good at, why keeping their native weaknesses. And while CI has some very strong weaknesses with Freeze and Stun, there are very comfortable ways around those. And the most terrible thing is that CI and the high sustainability that is often accompanied by it requires threats that while maybe dangerous for CI are a lot more dangerous for Evasion.

If you want to counter ES you need high physical hits. Because elemental mitigation is as high for ES as it is for any other build (Evasion is the best here, but they use a much smaller Healthpool with a very unreliable defense). The only other way to stress CI currently would be something that removes leech, which again due to the low amounts of renegeration on the right side would hurt evasion, since they kinda need it as well and even then ES has natural recovery. For Marksman most of this doesn't matter, because they can actually try to avoid danger. But as a melee you might run into issues.

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