EDIT: Melee will go extinct before even getting to final 5 Atlas bosses

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raics wrote:

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Kasapnica wrote:

I honestly have no idea what do you think a melee should be...

Look up the definition of melee combat on wiki then if it isn't clear enough from the thread.

It's actually very similar situation to 'spells' in D3, the game has no spells as all skills use weapon damage and attack speed. In PoE even melee is ranged.

I get that,been playing ARPGS all my life,and there is no such thing as "true melee".
Every single one of these pretty much comes to the following,either the best AOE skill or AOE skill for AOE and another for single target.

But PoE is the only game i see this strange thing,if it says melee but has big aoe its not true melee. So there was my question,what do we do here ? If its aoe its not true melee,if its single target it sucks because it can't clear. So whats the idea,we make this single target with so much damage,so you go from group to group and eventually end up with the same clear speed as a ranged char,wont this make bosses too easy then,because they eventually will be the only problem. I honestly don't get what people mean by melee,because i see nothing different than in any other ARPG,in D2 barb for example was using WW for fastest farm,paladin used hammers,in Sacred,gladiator pressed fist of the gods and everything on the screen was dead.Does this make them "fake" melee tho? Poe is no different than these games,the only difference is that there isn't enough defense to stay alive in close combat,but this doesn't seem to be a problem,atleast for me,but i played berserker/jugg so that should mean these 2 are the best melee ascendancy.

So all in all,we need the other skills buffed to EQ level,and the passive bonuses i mentioned in my previous posts.

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Kasapnica wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Kasapnica wrote:

I honestly have no idea what do you think a melee should be...

Look up the definition of melee combat on wiki then if it isn't clear enough from the thread.

It's actually very similar situation to 'spells' in D3, the game has no spells as all skills use weapon damage and attack speed. In PoE even melee is ranged.

I get that,been playing ARPGS all my life,and there is no such thing as "true melee".
Every single one of these pretty much comes to the following,either the best AOE skill or AOE skill for AOE and another for single target.

My frenzy barbarian / fury druid from Diablo 2 would like to disagree.
But then again in D2 you didn't have a thousand monsters per map so you didn't need that much AoE to begin with.

Melee builds in D2 inherently had the 2~3x the damage output of ranged characters, whereas here a 2h melee weapon has roughly 60% more damage compared to a bow.
Combine that with the fact you had tough enemies there and in lower numbers means single target skills worked, unlike here.

But that is a symptom of GGG wanting players to feel strong by exploding 20+ enemies on a skill use.

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Kasapnica wrote:

I get that,been playing ARPGS all my life,and there is no such thing as "true melee".
Every single one of these pretty much comes to the following,either the best AOE skill or AOE skill for AOE and another for single target.

Sure there is. We had Zeal pallys and fury druids in D2, melee skills in Sacred have extremely short range and in titan quest or torchlight we even have autoattack builds.

We could say melee with half a screen coverage is even somewhat of a rarity, that's why you don't see 'true melee' discussed often, there is no true and fake melee because most of the melee out there is true.

There were some threads on the issue of the the game driving itself into a corner, monster density and kill rate required for efficient playing are just too high currently so high AoE is the only way to go and your dps doesn't suffer nearly enough if you do get a lot of coverage. It would all have to change before we could even consider having a low AoE - high damage option.

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Mannoth wrote:

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Kasapnica wrote:

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raics wrote:

I honestly have no idea what do you think a melee should be...

Look up the definition of melee combat on wiki then if it isn't clear enough from the thread.

It's actually very similar situation to 'spells' in D3, the game has no spells as all skills use weapon damage and attack speed. In PoE even melee is ranged.

I get that,been playing ARPGS all my life,and there is no such thing as "true melee".
Every single one of these pretty much comes to the following,either the best AOE skill or AOE skill for AOE and another for single target.

My frenzy barbarian / fury druid from Diablo 2 would like to disagree.
But then again in D2 you didn't have a thousand monsters per map so you didn't need that much AoE to begin with.

Melee builds in D2 inherently had the 2~3x the damage output of ranged characters, whereas here a 2h melee weapon has roughly 60% more damage compared to a bow.
Combine that with the fact you had tough enemies there and in lower numbers means single target skills worked, unlike here.

But that is a symptom of GGG wanting players to feel strong by exploding 20+ enemies on a skill use.[/quote]

True,but thats pretty much only because of crushing blow,Though yea,had frenzy barb and once it got decked out,the damage was insane,and the movement speed helped. But as you said,imagine the poe monster density and think again,whther frenzy or Whirlwind/blizzard/hammers would clear faster.

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raics wrote:

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Kasapnica wrote:

I get that,been playing ARPGS all my life,and there is no such thing as "true melee".
Every single one of these pretty much comes to the following,either the best AOE skill or AOE skill for AOE and another for single target.

Sure there is. We had Zeal pallys and fury druids in D2, melee skills in Sacred have extremely short range and in titan quest or torchlight we even have autoattack builds.

We could say melee with half a screen coverage is even somewhat of a rarity, that's why you don't see 'true melee' discussed often, there is no true and fake melee because most of the melee out there is true.

There were some threads on the issue of the the game driving itself into a corner, monster density and kill rate required for efficient playing are just too high currently so high AoE is the only way to go and your dps doesn't suffer nearly enough if you do get a lot of coverage. It would all have to change before we could even consider having a low AoE - high damage option.

Zeal,fury,frenzy,and crushing blow. Put the density of poe,and everyone would be only WW barb,hammerdin or AOE sorc,etc.

Grim dawn is a game i have 400 hours in,the procs and item enchants made these auto attack skills destroy fast. I have a warder here with Primal strike,focused on aoe procs,both from items and devotion,the entire screen dies in 1-2 hits. So yet again we are back to AOE.

Leave alone crushing blow, I am talking about weapon damage.

An elite base bow peaked at 39 average damage, a elite 2h sword peaked out at 86.5 damage while elite 2h maces peaked out at 106.5 average damage.

In poe a mirror harbinger peaks out at 607.43 dps with 9.4 base crit.
A mirror Vaal Axe peaks out at 879 dps and a crit 2h sword at 837 dps and 8.28 base crit.

Do you not see the insanity here?
Let me remind you, bows get a freaking quiver slot.

So that gap I mentioned between them is probably even less, in the line of 20~30% maybe.
20% less base damage compared to safety of ranged playstyle, with a quiver slot for life and more base crit than the best 2h crit weapon out there.

Let that sink in.

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Mannoth wrote:

Leave alone crushing blow, I am talking about weapon damage.

An elite base bow peaked at 39 average damage, a elite 2h sword peaked out at 86.5 damage while elite 2h maces peaked out at 106.5 average damage.

In poe a mirror harbinger peaks out at 607.43 dps with 9.4 base crit.
A mirror Vaal Axe peaks out at 879 dps and a crit 2h sword at 837 dps and 8.28 base crit.

Do you not see the insanity here?
Let me remind you, bows get a freaking quiver slot.

So that gap I mentioned between them is probably even less, in the line of 20~30% maybe.
20% less base damage compared to safety of ranged playstyle, with a quiver slot for life and more base crit than the best 2h crit weapon out there.

Let that sink in.

Well thats true,but my point was mostly about efficiency farming,not who makes more damage.And that people call anything that has AOE,not true melee. Damage can be buffed i agree,because all we got now is EQ.

If melee players took 2 hits to kill enemies and ranged took 6 smaller AoE melee skills would be competitive.

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Mannoth wrote:

If melee players took 2 hits to kill enemies and ranged took 6 smaller AoE melee skills would be competitive.

Then they will cry about bosses,dying too fast with melee,while range need to hit them 3x more and kite all the time. This ain't d2 times where people didn't care about these things.

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Kasapnica wrote:

Well thats true,but my point was mostly about efficiency farming,not who makes more damage.And that people call anything that has AOE,not true melee. Damage can be buffed i agree,because all we got now is EQ.

We know all that, the current situation is just the way the game evolved and it can't realistically be fixed at base level anymore, we're just saying we don't like it and that it could be prevented. Because lowAoE/HighDmg can be an equally good farming option as highAoe/lowDmge, it takes work to steer a carriage, you don't just let horses go and lay back.

Try comparing bow skills in D2 with bow skills in PoE, the latter is batshit insanity, no wonder you can't compete with that.

Anyway, I'm not calling everything with an AoE fake melee and there's no reason to, melee skills should have an AoE. However, I wouldn't go beyond 20 units with it except for skills with frost blades / wild strike mechanics.