Bone Helmet implicit, "powercreep" or outdated passive tree?

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

srs builds arent summoners..... if that is what you are thinking

By your definition.



SRS builds are summoners since raging spirits are being summoned. It may be temporary like Summon Skeletons, but they have health like any other minions.

a pure srs build is summoner in name only since it barely has any of the requirements of one and is not really built like one. And saying what they do have is not the same as what they invest in.

Srs build invest into passives almost exactly like a spell caster would .. substitute minion damage for spell damage .. and you effectively have a fire storm character that scales off of hatred.


Hit the duration nodes

Hit the cast speed nodes

Jewels only need minion damage and optimally minion damage and cast speed (or life)

You spend most of your time casting your primary skill ( srs ) like you would a fire storm ... fire ball or any spell.

hell I bet money someone could make a freaking coc srs build and it would work.

To an srs build the only things you do for your minion is scale damage and get what ever else takes zero effort to get .


You dont even need minion gear . just get a +3 fire staff (which you could you know.... use for a firestorm build) just use that belly of the beast ... +2 minion helm? fuck that use an alphas ... bones of uller? you high? just use these :.


pure srs builds are what people who dont want to play real summoners play to trick themselves into thinking they are playing a summoner. Its not.. Its a good build .. even a great build .. but it aint a summoner

A zoo summoner that uses srs .. sure your a summoner. pure srs. nope .. you are a spell caster .. one of the few self casting ones left too id bet

Well SRS is more like throwing biting traps without cooldown :P Because the interaction between SRS and the Caster are actually Minion Like. They are there own entities, which makes a huge difference to a spell (like... reflect).

So it does cast something, but not like a spell. Also Skeletons are technically not that much different or Animate Weapons, they are both just more limited, which is also why they suck.

I understand what you are saying, it isn't so much about if it is a summoner or not, but SRS builds are working nicely. A Zombie/Spectre or even more a Skeleton Summoner though has a tons of issues. And this helm more or less helps the SRS summoner a lot more than the others.

In all honesty Zombie/Spectre summoners are one of the few classes that are allowed to complain as much as melee. Since they are as terrible. Again not from a raw power point of few, but from playstyle. Minions can deal incredible damage, if they are alive and do the right thing, but they are terrible if behaving stupid or just outright dying. Exspecially Perandus with tons of AoE mobs showed how weak summons are in those situations. And on the other hand if you are fighting something that mainly attacks just one zombie they feel invincible, since the enemy switches target so often that they regenerate to full in between. So the boundary between making them invincible or cannon fodder is very small and they are already there. So sometimes they feel cool and powerful and other times pretty useless.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well SRS is more like throwing biting traps without cooldown :P Because the interaction between SRS and the Caster are actually Minion Like. They are there own entities, which makes a huge difference to a spell (like... reflect).

there are now tools available to spell casters to side step reflect (elementalist)

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Emphasy wrote:

So it does cast something, but not like a spell. Also Skeletons are technically not that much different or Animate Weapons, they are both just more limited, which is also why they suck.

The big thing that srs builds get away with is the fact that srs are flying .. they don’t path block enemies or themselves nor are they specifically targeted. This is fundamentally why i dont consider them a summoner build. because in most cases enemies dont treat them like minions.

path blocking is a defining trait and problem with swarmy minions. There is a very real problem that if you have enough minions .. some of them wont be able to attack a given target. Srs fly they can zip right up to a target and nom on it.

Being hardy enough to survive punishment is also a defining trait (as you acknowledged). either your minions are durable enough to do damage .. or they are not and are effectively useless to you. yet again srs get around this by the fact that apart from aoe spam .. they flat out arent in danger.

srs are closer to spells than they are to minions because of these two things..

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srs are closer to spells than they are to minions because of these two things..

I still compare the more to traps, than spells. Even the floating thing is more in line of traps than a lot of spells. Try shooting Arctic Breath past... literally anything :P

They also don't proc on kill effects.

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path blocking is a defining trait and problem with swarmy minions. There is a very real problem that if you have enough minions .. some of them wont be able to attack a given target. Srs fly they can zip right up to a target and nom on it.

Well that is only a problem for Skeletons, for Zombies it is actually a solution to another problem. Right now a Spectre/Zombie summoner is pushed a lot into specific items. Without Queens, Bones, Midnight etc he has very few minions. Those items though, exspecially Bones are terrible and make the summoner itself incredible weak, thus having a blocking wall of Zombies is actually beneficial in this case. Also as soon as not all your minions can attack the enemy is also circled meaning that he cannot attack you. So overall that is not that big of an issue, and a lot of stronger opponents are also bigger, thus giving space for more minions.

but its not really nit picking though.

Again you are point out what they can do or what they share fundamentally , but you aren’t really acknowledging how the skill plays out in practice.

if we get down too it the vast majority what you do to buff minions you can do to buff everything else.

offerings? mistress of sacrifice .. now your fire-storm is fleshoffering approved .
auras? use anger and haste and your fire storm wont know the difference.
curses? same deal.

at the end of the day what really defines a build type is how it plays and what its limitations are.

And in that sense while you can say srs is a minion build because it uses auras .. offerings and benifits from minion specific nodes.

How it plays out and its limitations are much closer to that of a self casting spell caster.


they get cast speed crit and spell damage
srs gets cast speed minion attack speed and minion damage.

they have to continuously cast their main attack to do damage
So does srs

the majority of the build is about the main character durability with the exception of those spell damage stats
well same is true for srs .. srs doesnt give a single crap about the well being of its minions .. no more than one would care about the well being of a fireball on its way to kill something.

because cast speed is a boon srs it can take advantage of the same movement skills too.


in comparison other minion builds are radically different. where as srs doesnt care about its minions getting killed .. if the minions of other summoners die .. that summoner is fucked.

summoners have to dedicate points to investing into the well being of their minions because of this . srs dont .. again homing fireball.


because of this lack of needing to invest atleast alittle bit into the durability of minions. the srs build does not play like a summoner. hell the way you preload spirits by summoning a ton of them reminds me more of blade vortex than anything else .

It suffers almost none of the limitations every other summoner build has. I dont think it even matters to frame it as one even if it is "technically" a summoner build.


Because of this saying summoners can easily do say lab when really its just srs that can easily do it .. is extremely misleading and not even remotely helpful. that is like saying everyone drives a ford when only 5% do .. its just not useful.


Sure its not exactly a spell caster.. but its certainly not really a summoner either.

SRS players spend basically their whole time summoning minions.

Spectre players spend almost no time summoning minions. (And would spend literally no time summoning stuff, if spectres persisted after logout.)

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

Again you are point out what they can do or what they share fundamentally , but you aren’t really acknowledging how the skill plays out in practice.

I did mention in the previous post (not the one you quoted just now) that SRS is pretty much like Summon Skeletons, which they are temporary. I know that they do not share the same consequences as those of Zombies and Spectre.
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unlike srs , skeletons are targeted . if you dont invest into their durability you will find certain encounters almost impossible to do with them. this is actually one of the reasons why skeletons suck. they act like normal minions but lack the durability to really be viable minions. pretty much a collection of all the worst aspects of a minion.

on the surface you would think they are very similar but it is kind of like comparing a high performance speed racer to a horse drawn carriage

being flying entities is something people really dont appreciate enough about srs. srs is the only minion you can really get away with investing nothing into durability because of that one aspect about them. that one mechanic throws everything about minions out of the window.


I realize very well you are going for the minimum requirements bit for srs and "summoners" i am making the claim not to do that.

much like you wouldn't really call CoC a spell caster
srs is so radically different from what it technically branched from that it really should not be called anything other than just "SRS" .
its not a summoner build .. its an srs build .

So, your argument is that Raging Spirits are too good, and therefore an SRS build doesn't count as a summoner? Are Summoners only allowed to use crappy minions or something?