Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

Should we stop commenting on this page?

ps. dam, didn;t know that exactly this post would pass the border...sorry.

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Zlajke wrote:

Should we stop commenting on this page?

You can comment anywhere you'd like. :-) This is the best thread to comment in if the comment is regarding the anecdotal evidence regarding number of threads about labyrinth and list of posters that have indicated that would like changes to labyrinth or how to get ascendancy points.

My personal favorite thread for discussing labyrinth in general is SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Many people making their first post about disliking labyrinth when they create a new thread. While that is well within anyone's right to create a new thread, it is less work for me if one decides instead to post to one of the already existing threads. :-)

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Jankalor wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Jankalor wrote:

"630 Posters in support" - lets be realistic here, that is nothing.

It just shows that you're a vocal minority, which most definately should not be considered when designing or rebalancing content.

I am perfecly fine with the Labyrinth, as are most people I imagine, they just don't bother to proclaim that on the forums every chance they get.

Sorry, that really doesn't make any sense. It does not indicate a minority or a majority. Your assertion that GGG should not consider feedback and suggestions posted in the Feedback and Suggestions forum is just plain silly. One thing that it proves is that people that have stated that only 5 or 20 people post in the forum that they dislike some things with the labyrinth are way off in their estimates.

I'm happy that you are fine with the labyrinth.

I concur that I phrased the part about not "not considering" your feedback terribly.

Sure they should consider it, just don't make changes to the current Lab by solely looking at such threads (which is what - in my experience - most lab-critics expect, having the lab re-designed to fit their specific needs / wishes).

You're saying that my statement regarding the Vocal Minority doesn't make any sense ?
Well then, lets look at the facts:

Steam Charts for the Month's of October and September show a peak number of unique players of 23.384 (October) and 33.220 (October) - http://steamcharts.com/app/238960.
Keep in mind that these numbers are solely based on steam, they do not take players outside of steam into consideration (or so I would assume), so these numbers do not reflect the overall peak.
And yes, I have taken the peak numbers after the start of the most recent expansion, because the more people play, the more people tend to leave feedback.

Now you can argue that most people don't post on the forums and even more probably don't use the forums alltogether and that would probably be correct.

Even if we assume that only 10% of the steam-peak players use these forums, you'd still get 2338 - 3322 users that may visist the forums and perhaps even post feedback here (keep in mind that these numbers are for steam only)

Which is why I consider a number of 630 to be a minority.

Sure, these are all assumptions and I can prove nothing, but I don't feel that it's completely unreasonable to look at it like that.

This one is for people who think that lab haters are a minority. http://www.strawpoll.me/10311205/r

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Mrowen70 wrote:

This one is for people who think that lab haters are a minority. http://www.strawpoll.me/10311205/r

If you seriously think a strawpoll link from the 26'th of may proves anything, you're delusional.

It's been running for around 6 months now and all you've got are ~2.500 votes in total, with only half of that even disliking the Lab (your strawpoll only adds up to 99% interestingly, which doesn't really add to it's credibility).

If you look at the situation logically, it is safe to assume that most people visist the forums to express their dislike about something or to seek help with problems they've encountered (I am judging this from my own behaviour and that of most friends I know), if people are content / happy or indifferent to certain things, they usually do not bother to express their feelings about it on the according forums.

I assume you posted your link on these forums, which is (as I explained above) most likely visisted by a majority of people who have some kind of problem with the Labyrinth, so that alone would invalidate your poll.

None of this really matters in the end, since neither you or me can prove any of that, we don't have the necessary informations to draw any kind of realistic conclusions.

I just hope that GGG stands firm and does not budge to threads like these.

There's alaways room for small improvements, but most of the Labyrinth complaints can be traced back to player-incompetence, impatience, indifference or a lack of game-mechanic understanding.

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Jankalor wrote:

If you look at the situation logically, it is safe to assume that most people visist the forums to express their dislike about something or to seek help with problems they've encountered (I am judging this from my own behaviour and that of most friends I know), if people are content / happy or indifferent to certain things, they usually do not bother to express their feelings about it on the according forums.

If you look at the situation logically, it is safe to assume that the forum is representative of the overall opinion trend.

Or that it isn't. You can choose from the two.

Not that it is representative of one opinion trend and not the other. This issue generates enough heat to draw out the opinions of most forum users in one direction or the other. The assertion that one side's voice should somehow be weighted more than the other has no merit for this reason alone, and is surprisingly persistent.

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There's alaways room for small improvements, but most of the Labyrinth complaints can be traced back to player-incompetence, impatience, indifference or a lack of game-mechanic understanding.

Ignoring for the moment that statements like this weaken your entire argument because they make you appear woefully uninformed, I think it is reasonable to assert that even one disgruntled poster describing what s/he finds unfun or objectionable about the Labyrinth is worth listening to, if the content of that complaint is legitimate. Quality criticism > quantity of criticism.

Hypothetically speaking, of course. If you happen to believe that the quantity (per se) of criticism of the Labyrinth is small enough to be worth ignoring. That too is a difficult statement to defend.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If you look at the situation logically, it is safe to assume that the forum is representative of the overall opinion trend.

Or that it isn't. You can choose from the two.

I don't see how that would be the case, how would you substantiate such a claim ?
As I said in my post, I made my statement based on my own behaviour and that of most people I know.

Not that it matters anyways, we can make baseless assumptions all day long and it'll get us nowhere.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Not that it is representative of one opinion trend and not the other. This issue generates enough heat to draw out the opinions of most forum users in one direction or the other. The assertion that one side's voice should somehow be weighted more than the other has no merit for this reason alone, and is surprisingly persistent.

It probably does, but then again how representative is the current forum community compared to the whole PoE community ?

We don't know, as such you can't invalidate any statements based on this.
Not that I disagree about it having no merit, because it doesn't, it's just an assumption of mine in the end and as I have stated before, those are meaningless.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Ignoring for the moment that statements like this weaken your entire argument because they make you appear woefully uninformed.

That's a bold statement.
Just take a look at the opening post and take a look at the names most of those 'Lab complaint threads" have (and if you're really brave, take a look inside)
and then I'd love to hear, if you honestly think that I am uninformed by saying what I did.

Keep in mind that I said "most", not all complaints are unreasonable, some are most definately justified, but most of them simply aren't - at least not from what I have seen so far.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I think it is reasonable to assert that even one disgruntled poster describing what s/he finds unfun or objectionable about the Labyrinth is worth listening to, if the content of that complaint is legitimate. Quality criticism > quantity of criticism.

Definately true.
Such complaints are the exception though - again, from what I have seen.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Hypothetically speaking, of course. If you happen to believe that the quantity (per se) of criticism of the Labyrinth is small enough to be worth ignoring. That too is a difficult statement to defend.

I don't.
But lets be honest, stating that "270" threads are "discussing Labyrinth problems" is just not true, most of those threads are not really discussing anything in a meaningful way.

A lot of those threads are rage-complaints (and their problems can usually (usually, not always!) be traced back to the reasons I gave you), which is why I can't take threads like this serious.

I wonder how many reasonable complaints / threads / posters would remain, if you were to weed out the bad ones.

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Jankalor wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If you look at the situation logically, it is safe to assume that the forum is representative of the overall opinion trend.

Or that it isn't. You can choose from the two.

I don't see how that would be the case, how would you substantiate such a claim ?

Huh? I don't have to. My point is one of logic, not one of claims which need to be substantiated by evidence.

What I state is a tautology. Either XYZ is useful evidence for a given assertion or it is not.

(more detail:)


You can't have it both ways. Either the forum is somewhat representative of the overall playerbase or it is not. Your statement that I quoted seemed to imply otherwise.

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That's a bold statement.

Indeed. It isn't difficult to find substantive and easily defensible descriptions of why the Labyrinth is problematic. If it were, I wouldn't have jumped on your comment characterizing most of them as due to "player-incompetence, impatience, indifference or a lack of game-mechanic understanding." That description is both simplistic and demonstrably incorrect.

For the sake of argument, let's look at the least thoughtful of the criticisms (since those are the ones you seem to have a beef with). From the point of view of pure numbers, I think the most common criticisms of the Labyrinth are "I find it boring," "It feels like a waste of my time," and "I find it irritating."

Not very helpful, perhaps, because they are non-specific. But does that invalidate them? Moreover, are those subjective experiences dismissible because they are due to player incompetence, impatience, indifference, or a lack of understanding of game mechanics? That is a much bolder statement, imo.

Tens of thousands or more people play this game, but you got 630 people complaining about the lab. Nice

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goetzjam wrote:

Tens of thousands or more people play this game, but you got 630 people complaining about the lab. Nice

If 630 People Complaining isn´t enough, then pls tell me how many are ?

And if 630 isn´t enough, does that mean any Feedback with less Complainers is per se irrelevant ?

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Shredzilly wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Tens of thousands or more people play this game, but you got 630 people complaining about the lab. Nice

If 630 People Complaining isn´t enough, then pls tell me how many are ?

And if 630 isn´t enough, does that mean any Feedback with less Complainers is per se irrelevant ?

It means that even though there's been far more discussion about labyrinth problems than any other issue brought up in the Feedback and Suggestions forum, GGG requires far more discussion before GGG will consider any feedback or suggestions regarding labyrinth, at least according to Goetzjam. So, that means we need to discuss it even MORE! MORE threads! MORE posts! There have not been anywhere near enough to get GGG's attention yet. MORE! MORE! MORE!