Players have x% less recovery...

"

Natharias wrote:

I only care because I'm making a build with almost 22% life regeneration planned by level 85. Since life can't really break 7k without really good gear with three unique items, reducing possible regen kills me.

How, exactly, are you planning to deal damage with this build? Or is your job going to be to run around and taunt + facetank for a glass cannon friend you have?

"

Vipermagi wrote:

If even just 20% Less Recovery "kills you", your build is really weak. Righteous Fire builds, (almost) the epitome of Regen-based, can run 60% Less Recovery maps with a little Flask management. A plain Regen-focused build shouldn't have issues running Smothering Maps. :)

Being able to run Smothering Maps is super good, because it's a moderately common Map modifier that grants 20% IIRQ, 15% IIR and 15% pack size. It's awesome.

I meant it figuratively, Vipermagi. It kills me as a player, not my character.

"

HikaruYami wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

I only care because I'm making a build with almost 22% life regeneration planned by level 85. Since life can't really break 7k without really good gear with three unique items, reducing possible regen kills me.

How, exactly, are you planning to deal damage with this build? Or is your job going to be to run around and taunt + facetank for a glass cannon friend you have?

I'm currently running Embertaming with Firestorm. I melt almost every boss just as quickly as I melt trash. The only enemies that give me trouble are ones that move about constantly or often, as not many fireballs hit and thus damage potential is limited.

I melted through Merciless Izaro in about twenty seconds. Considering that I had to move to get him away from the elementals that give him buffs (I believe to resistance and extra damage of that element) and due to the teleport-into-my-nearby-traps-AOE-thingy.

But once I get my hands on some 5% ele damage Grand Spectrums, I'll be swapping out to a different spell. Not sure which, and I've got plenty of time to consider since they each cost a few exalted.

I hope you switch out The Taming and Emberwake too if you get that jewels. Embertaming and Grand Spectrum together is really kind of wasting.

"

Goldarm5 wrote:

I hope you switch out The Taming and Emberwake too if you get that jewels. Embertaming and Grand Spectrum together is really kind of wasting.

Obviously. But for now I'm using Embertaming because it costs two Grand Spectrums but gives about seven or eight GC worth of damage.

Once I get the eight I'm planning for, I'll swap Emberwake and The Taming for my Kaom's Way to get a total of 0.8% life regeneration per e-charge. That's when my build will be complete.

What really grinds my gears is the mod Players have no Life or Mana Regeneration. I guess I can see from a balance perspective why that might be a good map mod, as regeneration is pretty damn strong in this game, but it's still pretty annoying.

Maybe, since they added Cospri's Will, they're going to slowly start removing absolute immunities in this game. Fingers crossed for a complete removal of no regen mod, but that probably isn't likely.

"

adghar wrote:

What really grinds my gears is the mod Players have no Life or Mana Regeneration. I guess I can see from a balance perspective why that might be a good map mod, as regeneration is pretty damn strong in this game, but it's still pretty annoying.

Maybe, since they added Cospri's Will, they're going to slowly start removing absolute immunities in this game. Fingers crossed for a complete removal of no regen mod, but that probably isn't likely.

Depending on the game, immunities are good. In my opinion, they are one of the best things to have in a game.

Immunities are no different from no regeneration, Blood Magic, and other mods. They hard-counter specific builds, and, sometimes, many builds. No regeneration hurts everyone, but it hurts some more than others.

Hard-counters, which is what immunity is, is good because it forces both players and developers alike to alter their game so nobody makes a one-button character. Look at Diablo II. A sorceress could invest into a single lightning skill and take down most monsters very quickly (Static Field removed 25% of current life in a single cast, before lightning resistance and difficulty effectiveness reduction). That meant it could be used against all but lightning immune monsters to rapidly bring them down so that another lightning skill, even with only a few points, could kill them.

That meant all other points could be put into fire or cold, or both.

If Diablo II didn't have lightning immunity, sorceress' would just pump lightning and maximize lightning penetration, so that Static Field and another lightning spell (like an automatic one, Thunder Storm) would just kill everything. Literally, a one-button character.

I've never understood why anyone would hate hard-counters unless they themselves desire a one-button character. And such things should either be very uncommon or not possible at all. They're detrimental to the game.

Its not really about the one button character that bugs me. What bugs me is if you have a build that requires certain interactions and then theres a mod that just says no, because it makes the interaction your building on impossible. Its certainely not what I think should be top priority in PoE right now. But in a perfect world Id really like map mods to be something you have to play around and not build around.

"

Goldarm5 wrote:

Its not really about the one button character that bugs me. What bugs me is if you have a build that requires certain interactions and then theres a mod that just says no, because it makes the interaction your building on impossible. Its certainely not what I think should be top priority in PoE right now. But in a perfect world Id really like map mods to be something you have to play around and not build around.

You do realize what you just said, right?

If you focus all on fire damage, and fire damage is all you ever do, you can't complain that your build is suddenly useless just because you come across one or a few enemies that are immune to fire damage.

That means that you need to make a build that either:

1. Doesn't do all one thing.

or

2. Find a way to go around that counter.

That is the exact purpose of a counter. That is exactly why I like them. You can't just focus on one thing and one thing alone, unless you have a plan to deal with stuff your focus can't.

"

Natharias wrote:

That means that you need to make a build that either:

1. Doesn't do all one thing.

or

2. Find a way to go around that counter.

You even say it yourself, you have to build around it. And Im perfectly fine with counters, but for example the Bloodmagic map mod with CI. If you cant somehow reduce your manacost to 0 you just cant do it. You can have a fine CI build that doesnt just specialize in one and only one thing, but if you cant get manacost to 0 you still cant do it.

Another example a build that needs elemental status ailments can be made completly useless by just one map mod. Its fine that some optional bosses cant be done with this, but whole maps?

So like the CI example just let us have other map mods that would be like:"You can do this map if you dont have Elemental Overload Keystone not allocated." I mean, you could just spec out of it. Sounds nice, right?


What Id like to see would be like: "1 mob per pack has a permanent proximity shield"
It wouldnt require you to change your build, but to kill that monster or probably even that pack you would have togo into melee range instead of offscreening it.

I just personally prefer the alternatives to be readily available and/or active. With Life Regeneration, there are ways to build a character on regen and make it really strong. When you run into a No Life Regeneration mod, you lose a significant part of your power (or you skip the mod), with no real substitute option. Like your D2 example, you could get around an elemental immunity by changing to a different ability, as easy as one button press. With Life Regeneration builds, you can't press a button to switch to a comparable mechanic. I guess you could spec for leech as well, but you still miss out on a lot of power.

Just feels kind of unfun, really, even if it maximizes long term net fun.

I actually like gGG's decision not to have any elemental immunes more for thematic reasons than build diversity reasons. If I want to shatter the world with my heart of ice let me do it, damnit! I'm glad GGG lets penetration and curse effectivenesd work the way they do.

By the way, with Cospri's Will out there, I think no regen is one of the hardest counters in the game right now. For example, if your main skill costs 34 mana or fewer, you can easily do Blood Magic maps as CI with just one support gem and 3 Elton rings, no passive respecs necessary. Hexproof can be done with Cospri's Will. No Regen has ... ???

Or another way of putting it. I personally prefer soft counters instead of hard counters. That is, I prefer barriers with good options for your point 2: "Find a way to go around." I like finding ways to go around. Not so found of a Map spawning a mod that says, "nope, you can't do this because you chose to focus on Life Regeneration." Not just harder - but actually can't.

But like I said earlier, I said it's probably a good map mod from the game balance perspective, so it looks like you completely agree with me there.