plans for the endgame

Rodhull... I'd like to play this game with you. Do you play HC?

I don't think you understand the point of an endgame...

This game is currently very easy to do in the 4 difficulties and an endgame is simply a challenge to be done after the mian story is done. You could call it side content too, it would be the same.

Play Diablo 2 to 99. Do it for all character classes and then start over with the first one.

Do that for five years.

Hell, I did that last year too.. Still fun.


All the endgame you need, right there.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I've never been an MMORPG player, so I think this particular definition of "endgame" has always seemed a little weird to me. It's like saying there has to be something to do...once you've done everything? Why? When I beat the final level of Deus Ex, I don't demand that there be more levels after the end of the levels, that hardly even makes sense.

Getting through the world and leveling up your character is the game. When you've done that, you haven't reached the "endgame", you've reached the end. It's no surprise you get bored if you try to keep playing after that.

Luckily, though, there is a built-in section of extra content: it's called making a new character. If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

I mean, if the stuff a game designer wants to add on the end is so fun, neverending, ever-evolving...why on earth would they make it so players have to put in days and days of grinding to get there? Why not just make that part the game, rather than the endgame?

I also have to quote this extremely well made post, just for truth.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

Look at Battle of the Immortals, that's how an ARPG ends up if you try to mix in MMO features, and it is not pretty. Nor fun.

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RodHull wrote:

Basically what happened was when themepark MMOs became the big business, developers realised that they needed a way to hook gullible people into playing (and paying) for their games based on the promise of something better after a set amount of time

Yeah, you mentioned this earlier and I meant to point out my agreement with it then. Along with this:

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RodHull wrote:

take EVE for example, it has many different metagames (for want of a better term) like Corporate warfare, mission running, exploration, and so on. None of these are used as springboard to get to something better, they are all of themselves perfectly good ways to play and enjoy the game.

I find it really weird to see players justifying the idea of a long, bland, leadup to interesting, challenging stuff. Just put the interesting, challenging stuff in the game.

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Faerwin wrote:

I don't think you understand the point of an endgame...

This game is currently very easy to do in the 4 difficulties and an endgame is simply a challenge to be done after the mian story is done. You could call it side content too, it would be the same.

It's interesting that you can point out the bolded part and still identify the lack of something after it as the problem.

There's nothing wrong with adding extra content and optional challenges (not just at the end, but anywhere); I have nothing against devs doing that and it can be a good way to keep the game fresh. But if the game's difficulty curve is too flat, if the existing game is too easy or not fun for some other reason, fix that first. Let the natural end of the game be an "extra challenge" first, and then see what things look like from there.

I think looking at it that way is especially fitting in a game like this, where the "main story", as you call it, involves repeating the exact same thing four times. To me, you've finished the main story after Normal, and after that, you're into optional challenge territory; in fact I'd slightly question the sanity of someone who, after the first or at least the second time through, doesn't feel that way. What's the point of having all that repetition if it still doesn't provide players with a good challenge? You may as well put it to good use and have beating Merciless be really damn hard, have your difficulty levels actually mean something.

At this point its quite clear everyone here does not share the same definition of end game.

First we need to define "end game".


To me, end game in PoE is what we do once vertical character progression reachs a soft cap.

Its not act 2 on the last difficulty, its not reaching maelstrom of chaos. In practice, to me end game right now starts at around 10 levels above Maelstrom of Chaos. Its not an arbitrary value, its 10 levels, because thats the range at wich the amount of xp received is still integral. After that it gets a penalty. And its that penalty that defines the soft cap. Characters level 68+ are end game to me.

To me swift character progression is still within content boundaries.

Basically anything that they add, that provides unsoft capped vertical character progression is still content.

Basically, higher level maps cannot be considered end game if they provide the swift progression, therefore its content.

End game is what the game allows you to do once your vertical character progression has been soft capped by content means.

Right now, to me, end game is level 68+, at wich point the game fails to deliver and enters life support. So the end game we have now is repeating Maelstrom of Chaos from lvl 68+ indefinitelly.

Thats a very bad end game. Since what defines end game is the abscence of progression, offering an end game wich relies on the abscence of progression is empty and devoid of point. Thats when people break free from the shackles and go play something else.

Thats why the game must have something to keep people, besides the obvious soft capped vertical character progression.

You cant keep people interested by offering "progression" wich in reality is a fake/nerfed progression (soft capped). And if there was swift progression, then it would still be considered content, no end game. Wich would mean the game has no end game.

Right now the end game we have is "bad" end game, because it paradoxaly relies on something it cannot possibly deliver.
The conclusion is simple: the end game HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE. Thats why I originally said (first page of the thread) that "the current end game does not cut it".

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Interesting wrote:

To me, end game in PoE is what we do once vertical character progression reachs a soft cap.

Yeah I get that. But why does there actually have to be something to do then? I mean Diablo 2 has probably been the most successful ARPG - certainly the one so many have copied - and it didn't have anything special to do once you hit 99 or 98 or whatever the max level was.

If playing the game is fun, you don't need it because people will happily make new characters, play again with other friends, PvP etc; and if playing the game isn't fun...why the hell did you grind all the way to max level instead of doing something you actually enjoy?

Edit: wait, soft cap? Endgame starts at the point there's an explicit XP penalty? What about games that don't have an explicit XP penalty at some level, and just follow the same curve all the way through? That's a bit arbitrary a definition for me.

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Interesting wrote:

First we need to define "end game".

No you need to check your definitions to be honest mate...

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End Game
1. Traditionally used to describe the final rounds of chess games.

2. Also used to describe the final moments of a dramatic encounter, fight or series of events.

3. In MMORPG. Used to describe the playing done by people who have reached the maximum progression and/or the most advanced content currently available.

Endgame in relation to gaming was a phrase coined by MMO players. It was needed cause by virtue of what an MMO is they at some stage require the set up of a perpetual struggle to involve players in that facilitates those players paying their monthly subs for months or years on end. Other games, ALL other games don't need an 'end game' does GTA, or COD, or BF3 or God Of War, or Halo (just to mention a selection of blockbuster titles) have end games?? No they don't.

Like Gus said they do have expanded challenges for those that reach high levels of expertise, but ultimately there comes a time with all non MMO games when you either stop playing or if you enjoy the basic core game you continue playing and find other things to do, such as make new characters or in the case of loot games endlessly quest for the perfect loot.

Its you who doesn't understand what the difference between a loot ARPG is and an MMORPG. This game is not a MMORPG, it never will be. They aren't selling this game on the basis of it being an evolving, interactive world of adventures. Thats what they sell MMOs based on, thats why in order to justify that they come up with this idea of 'end game' cause they know at some stage players run out of real content and MMOs cant allow that, they need your monthly subs to keep running.

And again you have approached this thread with totally the wrong idea. You haven't read anything any of us wrote... This game doesn't need 'end game' it IS end game. Ultimately even if the cap was level 50 there wouldn't need to be an endgame.

Diablo 1 and 2 were the two most successful ARPGs ever made, they had no form of end game. And no adding in uber bosses about 8 years after it released does not count. Why you feel POE needs to offer something even the big franchise of the genre doesn't offer in order to survive is beyond me frankly. I think personally you just dont want to listen and dont read peoples posts...

None of that means the game is perfect, the challenge level could be higher, drops rates lowered (for starters) and of course act 3 added but for a beta, for what we have now its perfectly fine. And it doesn't need some dreary node capturing zerg pvp metagame added... ever

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Faerwin wrote:

no, this isn't a mmorpg...

But its could be.

I mean diablo3 have healer class, "Monk can in small ways heal

I would like to add a couple of suggestions regarding the end game.

I think mods are a great way of expanding a game's lifetime and it would be a great ideea if they implemented that into path of exile. But it would require a lot of cooperation between the developers and the modders, so they make sure things don't get out of hand (this system is very used by the people at valve (maps for tf2, game modes, hats, weapons etc; and they also cooperate with modders by organising contests, letting them wear their hats and in general letting people know who they are).

Another feature would be pvp minigames which are quite beneficial for exapnding the life time of the game especially when you finnished the storyline and you find yourself with nothing to do (i tell you this from my age of conan days when there wouldn't have been a day when i wouldn't play a couple of pvp minigames).

Leaderboards are another thing that motivates people to get going with their game.

Custom items are a major thing in diablo 2 (runewords), i played like 600 hours of diablo 2 and only to get a ber rune so i could make my dol-um-ber-ist armour. :)

Secrets (again, diablo 2 where you have the secret cow level and that secret tristram; but you can notice a couple of elements combined: people go to secret areas to get better gear so they can get better at fighting thougher bosses that drop better items that help them either get their desired items or reach a higher position on the leaderboards or even being better at pvp).

And, of course, any combination of these given features :) .
I hope i helped. :)