plans for the endgame

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Faerwin wrote:

no, this isn't a mmorpg...

Well said... God it worries the **** out of me that so many beta testers seem to have no clue what the ARPG loot genre is about and that this isn't and never will be an MMORPG. I see people requesting things that would never work and would not fit the whole concept of an ARPG loot game. The very idea of needing an 'end game' is frankly preposterous, the game itself IS the end game, the whole purpose is to endlessly search for loot in progressively more difficult conditions.

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Interesting wrote:

Search Depths of Peril/Dins Curse.
Look what 1 man did for the entire ARPG genre.

What, made a moderately successful indie game that had no appreciable impact on the wider genre whatsoever you mean... seriously how successful was that game? How famous is it? Now take a game like Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 back in the day before blizzard was a developing giant, those games had no end game whatsoever, they dont need one, people play them to hunt for loot.

This comes back to your same ridiculous gripes about the RMAH in D3, everything you write tells me you have no concept or clue what loot ARPGs are about. You play them, and expect to enjoy them in the same way you would an MMO. The two types of game are totally different. An MMO has an endgame cause they are made to hook you in for as long as possible (to squeeze sub money out of you) then only allow you interesting/enjoyable content when you have put in many many hours.

Games like POE and Diablo are intstantly gratifying. They become even more gratifying (you know for actual fans of the genre... unlike you) the more you progress and the more outrageous your loot becomes. That IS the end game, that IS the point...

Your ideas which you proclaim as though they would conquer the gaming world wouldn't work at all in an ARPG, they are pretty much impossible to implement in a MP environment.

Honestly why you continue playing the POE beta is beyond me, when clearly you are an MMO fan, this isnt, and never will be an MMO.

I've never been an MMORPG player, so I think this particular definition of "endgame" has always seemed a little weird to me. It's like saying there has to be something to do...once you've done everything? Why? When I beat the final level of Deus Ex, I don't demand that there be more levels after the end of the levels, that hardly even makes sense.

Getting through the world and leveling up your character is the game. When you've done that, you haven't reached the "endgame", you've reached the end. It's no surprise you get bored if you try to keep playing after that.

Luckily, though, there is a built-in section of extra content: it's called making a new character. If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

I mean, if the stuff a game designer wants to add on the end is so fun, neverending, ever-evolving...why on earth would they make it so players have to put in days and days of grinding to get there? Why not just make that part the game, rather than the endgame?

Endgame should be PvP.

There could be many ways to PvP :
- cutthroat leagues
- Classic arena fights
- battlefield-like battles with 2 teams of players helped by mobs fighting each other
- siege-like battles, same as above but with an attacking team and a defending team which has to defend a position
-and so on...

GGG intends to let players choose the rules of their own leagues, this is also endgame.

I can also imagine a random quest generator, it's actually not really hard to do. So I'm wondering why no big game tried to bet on this.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I've never been an MMORPG player, so I think this particular definition of "endgame" has always seemed a little weird to me. It's like saying there has to be something to do...once you've done everything? Why? When I beat the final level of Deus Ex, I don't demand that there be more levels after the end of the levels, that hardly even makes sense.

Getting through the world and leveling up your character is the game. When you've done that, you haven't reached the "endgame", you've reached the end. It's no surprise you get bored if you try to keep playing after that.

Luckily, though, there is a built-in section of extra content: it's called making a new character. If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

I mean, if the stuff a game designer wants to add on the end is so fun, neverending, ever-evolving...why on earth would they make it so players have to put in days and days of grinding to get there? Why not just make that part the game, rather than the endgame?

You mate, have summed it up perfectly! I have had enough with this stupid "endgame" business that all MMO players are so fond of.

Even in an MMO for me, I don't care at all about the "endgame" as my enjoyment comes from the experience in the progression of the game, the story, the combat and the environments.

There is no point to an "endgame grind-fest", the "endgame" is the entire game, once you reach the end, you either quit and wait for expansions or re-roll another character! =)

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

Why not do both? I believe PoE has plenty of room for an end-game. I'm not talking about some ever-expanding world buisness. Just adding a few fun things to do, things that can really test out all that equipment that you've been working so hard to get.

Even Diablo 2 has such elements in it. In the form of "Ubers". They reward end-game builds with end-game equipment. I'm not saying this is the way it should be done. What I am saying is that just because it is an ARPG doesn't mean it cannot have a fun and functional end game.

I think it would be amazing to be extremely well equipped, lvl 98 destroying everything at the "end" of them game, still able to go into areas and find myself in situations where I could easily get myself killed.

Not everyone enjoys PvP, while it would make a great end-game for a lot of people. It's simply not for everyone.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I've never been an MMORPG player, so I think this particular definition of "endgame" has always seemed a little weird to me. It's like saying there has to be something to do...once you've done everything? Why? When I beat the final level of Deus Ex, I don't demand that there be more levels after the end of the levels, that hardly even makes sense.

Getting through the world and leveling up your character is the game. When you've done that, you haven't reached the "endgame", you've reached the end. It's no surprise you get bored if you try to keep playing after that.

Luckily, though, there is a built-in section of extra content: it's called making a new character. If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

I mean, if the stuff a game designer wants to add on the end is so fun, neverending, ever-evolving...why on earth would they make it so players have to put in days and days of grinding to get there? Why not just make that part the game, rather than the endgame?

This is, without question, the greatest post I have read in quite some time. Thank you.

Nightblaze.. also, well said.

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Llehfonwaps wrote:

Why not do both? I believe PoE has plenty of room for an end-game. I'm not talking about some ever-expanding world buisness. Just adding a few fun things to do, things that can really test out all that equipment that you've been working so hard to get.

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying there shouldn't be some final mega-boss or whatever. Just that, you know, at some point you have to accept that it was just that - final - and that that's okay.

I mean you mention Diablo 2's Ubers. When you kill them, you get what, the Hellfire Torch? What are you going to do with that? You've already beat the strongest monsters in the game without it, so obviously you don't need it. You can either say okay, I have this equipment that's more powerful than I need to kill everything in the game, I'm going to treat it as a trophy, a capstone for my character...or you can demand another, even harder boss to "test" your new toy out on.

If you're capable of saying the former, then you didn't really need an extra endgame anyway; and the problem with the latter is that it can never actually be satisfied, it goes on forever. By problem, I don't mean it's bad for developers to add more stuff - I love developers adding more stuff, and if GGG keeps adding more to the game over time, I'd really appreciate it. What I mean by problem is that it's unreasonable to always expect more stuff - especially when you aren't paying a subscription fee. It's okay for a game to end. Start over, or go play something else. That's normal.

Interesting also to note that Uber Tristram wasn't the first endgame "world event" added to Diablo 2. The "Diablo Clone" was previously the endgame event, and now is just another boss along the way, in the same way that Hell Baal was the endgame boss before that. And the final state is exactly the same either way - high-end players end up with more powerful skills and equipment than they actually need to kill everything in the game.

So creating a "functional endgame" isn't adding something the game lacked before, it's just plain old making the game longer. Which is fine, and good, and appreciated by the players, but in Diablo 2's case, as with most others I dare say, the game was, and would have remained, entirely functional without it. It would still have had an endgame, just in a different position.

That makes a lot of sense. Great post I have nothing to disagree with about it.

But the torch, being class specific, did inspire to create new characters. So It wasn't all bad :)

One thing to note is that currently when a player gets to the point where they can one-shot everything in Chaos (which I can), they ask in chat for "leechers" to join their party and sit around while they kill the strengthened monsters.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I've never been an MMORPG player, so I think this particular definition of "endgame" has always seemed a little weird to me. It's like saying there has to be something to do...once you've done everything? Why? When I beat the final level of Deus Ex, I don't demand that there be more levels after the end of the levels, that hardly even makes sense.

Getting through the world and leveling up your character is the game. When you've done that, you haven't reached the "endgame", you've reached the end. It's no surprise you get bored if you try to keep playing after that.

Luckily, though, there is a built-in section of extra content: it's called making a new character. If that isn't fun - if you don't like actually playing through the game - then that's the problem, and tacking on a fun endgame is just avoiding it, not fixing it.

I mean, if the stuff a game designer wants to add on the end is so fun, neverending, ever-evolving...why on earth would they make it so players have to put in days and days of grinding to get there? Why not just make that part the game, rather than the endgame?

Basically what happened was when themepark MMOs became the big business, developers realised that they needed a way to hook gullible people into playing (and paying) for their games based on the promise of something better after a set amount of time... thus this stupid concept of 'endgame' was born.

Any truly well made MMO doesn't have an endgame, take EVE for example, it has many different metagames (for want of a better term) like Corporate warfare, mission running, exploration, and so on. None of these are used as springboard to get to something better, they are all of themselves perfectly good ways to play and enjoy the game.

Basically cheap or badly made MMOs use this concept of endgame to excuse the developers putting in endless repetitive tedious grind. Which is just their way of ensuring people play for longer than the actual content would normally demand. Strip the grind away from most MMOs and there isn't much game left. Asian MMOs are particularly bad for this, though they have improved somewhat in recent years.

The sad thing is a whole generation of gamers have grown up believing that unless a game forces you to play boring content for weeks in order to reach some 'endgame' that its not worth playing.

The funny thing is as well, that when you analyse most MMO endgame activity it usually revolves around broadly the same tired concept of node capture mixed with some form of zerg pvp.

I hope GGG stick to the POEs ARPG roots and do not try to appease the MMO crowd as it will kill this game stone dead, but I have faith they won't.