--WHY LEGACY RULE SHOULD REMAIN--

I always felt legacies as a bit unfair in the first place. Because there are no legacy skillgems (except for the removed ones... which is IIQ), since they always update, due to not having much information stored on them.

Since nobody complains about the skillgems I assume that people want the money that is created with legacies. Legacy items suddenly make some items vastly more expensive for no real investment. Things like this shouldn't happen.

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Loreweaver wrote:

The reason these items have been nerfed is that chaos conversion has been nerfed, and the items have been updated to show the correct values. They nerfed the mechanic, not the values on the items, and they nerfed it because holy shit.

I'm well aware of that. That doesn't explain why everyone and their mother thinks this was the best way to solve the problem. I'm not even qq'ing, just wondering who thought IM, underused and underappreciated as it is, was in need of a nerf. Seems like it got melee splashed by the nerfhammer.

Again, I used an Infernal mantle in Perandus, and it wasn't anywhere near op. Granted, I've only ever used it with one skill; firestorm (AFAI can remember). But on a 5 link with 20-21 lvl gems barely breaking 1.5 k tooltip dps was and is nowhere near 'holy shit'. And not reflect immune as was voltspark.
Plus it comes with at least one drawback, as opposed to Volt and Consuming Dark (100% increased Spell Damage taken when on Low Mana).

Anyway, this is way OT.

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unsane69 wrote:

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Loreweaver wrote:

The reason these items have been nerfed is that chaos conversion has been nerfed, and the items have been updated to show the correct values. They nerfed the mechanic, not the values on the items, and they nerfed it because holy shit.

I'm well aware of that. That doesn't explain why everyone and their mother thinks this was the best way to solve the problem. I'm not even qq'ing, just wondering who thought IM, underused and underappreciated as it is, was in need of a nerf. Seems like it got melee splashed by the nerfhammer.

Again, I used an Infernal mantle in Perandus, and it wasn't anywhere near op. Granted, I've only ever used it with one skill; firestorm (AFAI can remember). But on a 5 link with 20-21 lvl gems barely breaking 1.5 k tooltip dps was and is nowhere near 'holy shit'. And not reflect immune as was voltspark.
Plus it comes with at least one drawback, as opposed to Volt and Consuming Dark (100% increased Spell Damage taken when on Low Mana).

Anyway, this is way OT.

People keep saying its the "mechanic" that was nerfed, while chaos conversion is a mechanic its a value reduction which has ALWAYS been a legacy change. Unless your refer to the life leech changes as a value change, despite that truly being a mechanically change to make leech better for more targets and worst for single target. In the case of leech there was no way to change the mod and mechanics going forward without applying it retroactively. Overall the leech change was a buff to 5+ targets I believe.

However, when the value of an item's mod is reduced by 40% like voltasic that becomes an issue because the item has been in the game for 3+ years. We aren't talking about some item that had some overpowered use after a league or two, we are talking about an item that has always had what it has "today" getting reduced because they introduce other mechanics that people exploit.

In some way this nerf does address a bit of the double dipping that was used, but ONLY for these conversion items, so I feel this is more a temporary solution to a long term problem that they cant just patch out so easily. But don't hope too much that GGG will return these items back to their "former glory" as with most supporter uniques they will end up basically used to death, nerfed to irrelevance and discarded going forward, such is life.


I think its actually quite funny people defend it as a mechanics change, just because they decided to "do the chest as well" its the same principle of reduction that was already applied to consuming dark before, LOL.

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nephilim1984 wrote:

Legacy items should have never existed in the first place. It just makes the game harder to balance when they have to account for legacy gear...

That being said, balance is something that GGG is quite incompetent at.

They dont balance around Legacy items existing, that being said GGG has gone against their own policies concerning legacy items and it leaves no room for permanency in an actual permanent league, essentially removing any reason for people to play there in the first place. IF they want to kill off their permanent league players theyre doing a good job of that with the retroactive changes they keep doing. I cant even imagine being one of those people who owned Legacy Crit Multiplier items and getting boned by a retroactive global change, which effectively made those items 33% less effective.

I have very few Legacy items and they arent even good ones. Most of them are like quantity items or some not as strong ones like Legacy Lightning Coil (It doesnt even compare to how insane Legacy mjolner or Aegis is).

Just because a legacy item can pull you money one time doesnt mean anything. Its not like its going to net you infinite currency by owning one.

Those with the insight and the currency to purchase multiple items before they were legacy put their time in, in order to do so, they should not be punished for their investment.

Sometimes you get fucked, sometimes you dont.

Look at all the clowns going around before they fully announced the conversion change. "WTB 6L Voltaxic!!", needless to say those who jumped the gun lost out, tons of rich players who anticipated a legacy item lost probably hundreds of exalts within a few days.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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nephilim1984 wrote:

Legacy items should have never existed in the first place. It just makes the game harder to balance when they have to account for legacy gear...

That being said, balance is something that GGG is quite incompetent at.

They dont balance around Legacy items existing, that being said GGG has gone against their own policies concerning legacy items and it leaves no room for permanency in an actual permanent league, essentially removing any reason for people to play there in the first place. IF they want to kill off their permanent league players theyre doing a good job of that with the retroactive changes they keep doing. I cant even imagine being one of those people who owned Legacy Crit Multiplier items and getting boned by a retroactive global change, which effectively made those items 33% less effective.

I have very few Legacy items and they arent even good ones. Most of them are like quantity items or some not as strong ones like Legacy Lightning Coil (It doesnt even compare to how insane Legacy mjolner or Aegis is).

Just because a legacy item can pull you money one time doesnt mean anything. Its not like its going to net you infinite currency by owning one.

Those with the insight and the currency to purchase multiple items before they were legacy put their time in, in order to do so, they should not be punished for their investment.

Sometimes you get fucked, sometimes you dont.

Look at all the clowns going around before they fully announced the conversion change. "WTB 6L Voltaxic!!", needless to say those who jumped the gun lost out, tons of rich players who anticipated a legacy item lost probably hundreds of exalts within a few days.

While I agree with you that they shouldn't change items that have already dropped, it goes against most of their previous actions in regards to legacy items, I don't agree that it was "wrong" to change crit multi for the game itself. While it did in general make legacy crit multi worst, they ensured that legacy crit multi was still better (then non legacy) in almost every single way. The only exception being that legacy facebreakers have a lower multi, which only comes into play if your using the tailsman amulet.

GGG can't restrict themselves when trying to make overall design choices based on stuff like legacy crit multi.

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Those with the insight and the currency to purchase multiple items before they were legacy put their time in, in order to do so, they should not be punished for their investment.

Why? Investing into items that might go legacy is speculating... or gambling. There might be no legacy because the item isn't changed or there might be a change not creating a legacy item. In both cases they gambled and lost and I can't see why only one of them is bad.

Their gambling would also go wrong if GGG decided to not target those items. In the current case GGG could have addressed Voltaxic by nerfing Spark and Double Dipping of Chaos Damage and the result would be similar. Or to give Chaos Damage a new downside like not being able to deal critical damage. Still the value of Voltaxic would have severely dropped and they would have lost in their gamble... now they also did and this is perfectly fine.

There is also no legacy "rule" or anything like that. GGG basically do what they want or feel the best or easiest to do regarding legacy items. Sometimes making a legacy item is the easy way, which is mostly true for simple modifications of damage or defensive values. However in this case they modified two mods that were only present on the items they wanted to change so why not modify those mods instead, its easier (not much in this case, the life leech change was a much better example of when changing the mod is easier than changing each and every life leech value). But technically even here they had to change 2 Values vs. 3, not much gained but it still was technically the easier way.

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Emphasy wrote:

There is also no legacy "rule" or anything like that. GGG basically do what they want or feel the best or easiest to do regarding legacy items. Sometimes making a legacy item is the easy way, which is mostly true for simple modifications of damage or defensive values. However in this case they modified two mods that were only present on the items they wanted to change so why not modify those mods instead, its easier (not much in this case, the life leech change was a much better example of when changing the mod is easier than changing each and every life leech value). But technically even here they had to change 2 Values vs. 3, not much gained but it still was technically the easier way.

This.

There is no rule, they do what is best for the current situation/item. For the conversion nerf, GGG decided they wanted less chaos conversion accessible in the game, and found a way to mechanically change it.

It is identical to the leech nerf as they changed the math behind the conversion, and updated the labels on the items to "cheat" with their displays.

For numerical changes on items where the rolls are stored on the items, they prefer not to change it, as it would involve database downtime, and also I think Standard would revolt if they did that retroactively. (hint: it would not only involve updating the databases, but also recalculate the new rolls based on the previous rolls to the new brackets). For all intent and purposes they are stuck with this early database schema decision.

There are however ways to design items to both design with rolls and possibility to change them, so maybe in the future, GGG will make less "new" legacies.

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Emphasy wrote:

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Those with the insight and the currency to purchase multiple items before they were legacy put their time in, in order to do so, they should not be punished for their investment.

Why? Investing into items that might go legacy is speculating... or gambling. There might be no legacy because the item isn't changed or there might be a change not creating a legacy item. In both cases they gambled and lost and I can't see why only one of them is bad.

Their gambling would also go wrong if GGG decided to not target those items. In the current case GGG could have addressed Voltaxic by nerfing Spark and Double Dipping of Chaos Damage and the result would be similar. Or to give Chaos Damage a new downside like not being able to deal critical damage. Still the value of Voltaxic would have severely dropped and they would have lost in their gamble... now they also did and this is perfectly fine.

There is also no legacy "rule" or anything like that. GGG basically do what they want or feel the best or easiest to do regarding legacy items. Sometimes making a legacy item is the easy way, which is mostly true for simple modifications of damage or defensive values. However in this case they modified two mods that were only present on the items they wanted to change so why not modify those mods instead, its easier (not much in this case, the life leech change was a much better example of when changing the mod is easier than changing each and every life leech value). But technically even here they had to change 2 Values vs. 3, not much gained but it still was technically the easier way.

You mean there isn't a precedence set by previous actions or you know an old manifesto post regarding legacy items that dictates a "rule". I mean there is.



I dont see how you can defend the reduction made here instead of previous legacy interactions, considering the fact that just the patch before this they reduced the VALUE of the chaos conversion on consuming dark, the same thing they are doing, yet again just to multiple chaos conversion items.


This should have 100% been a legacy item change, that being said they still haven't made a manifisto post going into detail of what will or won't be a legacy item change going forward. You can't just say "mechanics change" and think that is the valid excuse, if the reduction is a numerical change, its a numerical change, even if you "disguise" it was a mechanics change.

A true mechanics change is that like mentioned of leech. Its like the opposite, its a numerical change that seems like its a nerf at first and is under certain circumstances, but in others its a buff. In no way at all is this chaos conversion reduction a buff, which is why fundamentally its wrong.


Leech also effects TONS of builds in the game, so its a "global" change, reducing chaos conversion items aren't.

Making a legacy item actually is the easiest way, they had to go out of their way to make this change "retroactive" which they likely learned or needed to discover how to do because of the leech changes.

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It is identical to the leech nerf as they changed the math behind the conversion, and updated the labels on the items to "cheat" with their displays.

Its identical as to how they are implementing it, but not as to why, which is why the situation is very, very different and why people have a reason to complain.

The meta changes all the time. By your logic, one would also need legacy skill gems, legacy skill trees, legacy monsters and legacy maps.

Would it be better if it had been a mechanical change ("converted damage loses half of the damage in the process of conversion") rather than an item nerf? No. But maybe people would at least whine less.

I read all the post replies and i must say i just understood 1 thing. this game is becoming like diablo3 hahaha you can have any skill gem any time. it cost nothing, u'll be able to do build soon cause it will also cost nothing! so in the end it will have no difference then just playing some game on iphone.

Why have something you worked for by spending time and effort, when everyone can have the same as you and you can be a " winner " too. lets give everyone a medal and free items and everyone will be happy...

ps. for those who didnt get it, this was a sarcasm.

People, when you work on something you should feel that u got rewarded for it. I posted this post because i liked what they did compared to diablo 3 in the begining, and appreciated their work. But lets be honest here. game in standard is broken. its cheaper to buy things or ask a friend for them then grinding a game. this is ridiculous. if i know this would fix all the problems i wouldn't say nothing but this game was created for gamers, Crowdfunded and made buy people who like this type of games, so im just trying to save what i think might be broken.

In the end its just a game, like football or angry birds, its something to relax our minds after work or when girlfriend is pissing you off ;)