SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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miljan wrote:

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joachimbond wrote:

Whether I can play frogger has nothing to do with whether my character is "worthy of ascension" (god i almost throw up in my mouth every time i read that pompous phrase) You know... Path of Exile, a game where you show you're good by killing mobs and not dying to their attacks?

Shushh. You got it all wrong. POE is a game where you do not make monsters and mobs you fight hard, have better AI, have more interesting mechanics and skill they use, to make the fights more difficult and more fun, but a game where the only way to make something "hard" and "skillful" is to implement timed puzzles with traps, or better said elements and gameplay from totally different type of games. And the most funny thing is, you can still rush through it without any "skill" if you have a build for it.

I agree they felt players skill at kiting got to good so now all boss fights have limited kite space. Players did to much DPS so they added punishing mechanics for too much dps. People went to chaos to prevent it and they nerfed that.

Fights aren't getting better they are just adding dumb mechanics to limit skill and builds.

"I agree they felt players skill at kiting got to good so now all boss fights have limited kite space. Players did to much DPS so they added punishing mechanics for too much dps. People went to chaos to prevent it and they nerfed that.

Fights aren't getting better they are just adding dumb mechanics to limit skill and builds."

^^^^

Good post, imo.


This game doesn't need a lab rework, you guys are caving in.

What this game needs is a rewind back to the original pre-Perandus PoE.

Then GGG needs to put the train back on the rails.



I believe that all this nonsense with trials, traps and ridiculous mazes is not in the best interest of PoE or the long term expansion and success of the game for GGG.

Sorry, but that is what I believe.

The lab and all it's craziness has got to die.

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Rayzabladez wrote:

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I believe that all this nonsense with trials, traps and ridiculous mazes is not in the best interest of PoE or the long term expansion and success of the game for GGG.

Sorry, but that is what I believe.

The lab and all it's craziness has got to die.

Actually I like that, I have proposed getting rid of ascendancy points altogether but it's not a very good solution from the perspective that in an ARPG it is VERY bad to take something away from the community that they feel that they have earned. So from a realistic perspective, I think that it's much more likely that GGG will leave the labyrinth and make the points available a different way in 2.4.

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Rayzabladez wrote:

"I agree they felt players skill at kiting got to good so now all boss fights have limited kite space. Players did to much DPS so they added punishing mechanics for too much dps. People went to chaos to prevent it and they nerfed that.

Fights aren't getting better they are just adding dumb mechanics to limit skill and builds."

^^^^

Good post, imo.


This game doesn't need a lab rework, you guys are caving in.

What this game needs is a rewind back to the original pre-Perandus PoE.

Then GGG needs to put the train back on the rails.



I believe that all this nonsense with trials, traps and ridiculous mazes is not in the best interest of PoE or the long term expansion and success of the game for GGG.

Sorry, but that is what I believe.

The lab and all it's craziness has got to die.

Your right,
I do not NEED the skill points but if they are there and I don't have them I feel like a 1 testicle wonder and my character never finished its build. If I am level 90 and they weren't there I would still be powerful enough and compete.

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Rayzabladez wrote:

I believe that all this nonsense with trials, traps and ridiculous mazes is not in the best interest of PoE or the long term expansion and success of the game for GGG.

Sorry, but that is what I believe.

The lab and all it's craziness has got to die.

So it's non-sense to you that many players just don't have fun with the lab and don't like it's playstyle? Even players who are playing PoE since the beginnung and still liked it until Lab? A game should be all about fun and if some content is no fun for many, then this is not good content, or at least it's not well optimized for the community.

@morbo

Wow, OK. It's very obvious that you don't understand why people don't like the lab. Do you want to understand? I'm willing to help you, but if you're not here out of a desire to understand this point of view, please tell me so I don't waste my time. I'm not interested in trying to convince you of anything (which is also a waste of time on the internet). But I'll point out where each of your rebuttals to the following objections represents an absence of understanding of the objection itself, via its elaboration.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Spoiler

1. Objections to the trap gameplay per se. If you think traps of this nature don't belong in PoE because it is too harsh a departure from the existing gameplay, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game that is a D2 successor, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game subject to network hiccups, or if you think traps of this nature don't belong with a mouse+keyboard control scheme, your objection probably fits in this category.

2. Objections to the non-optional nature of the content. If you think AC points make this content a de facto mandatory part of the game, and you think it should be optional to the same extent other non-expansion additions to the game are optional, your objection probably fits in this category.

3. Objections to the reward structure. If you run the labyrinth despite hating it, believe that content should be intrinsically fun, and compare the additional rewards added to the lab by GGG to the higher salaries enjoyed by garbage collectors working in large cities, your objection probably fits in this category.

4. Objections to GGG's approach and implementation. If you think a divided, toxic community is an unhealthy community, and that the labyrinth as it is currently implemented is causing exactly that, your objection probably fits in this category.

5. Objection to the difficulty of the traps and/or labyrinth. If you think the traps and/or Izaro encounters are too difficult and should be nerfed, your objection probably fits in this category. (Very few posters fit into this category, but you'll understand why I included it in a moment.)

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gibbousmoon wrote:

People who hate traps are talking about #1. People who find the entire labyrinth tedious, not just the traps, are (usually) talking about #3. The straw man I referred to earlier is #5.

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morbo wrote:

1.) Do traps really not belong into an ARPG? Look at them from the point of gamepaly mechanics: what does the player need to do to fight traps? You need to jump over them, outrun them, avoid them. Is this not what players do in ARPGs? But in PoE people got used too much to standing still and offscreening whole packs without having to move or avoid things. To those who find traps "out of place", I suggest they play more melee builds.

a. Traps in other ARPGs are not put together into configurations complex enough to be broken by network latency.
b. Traps in other ARPGs are not put together into configurations complex enough to bring out the inherent weaknesses of m+k quasi-isometric control schemes.
c. Traps in other ARPGs do not do %-based damage over time, and are therefore not nearly as deadly (especially relevant because of the labyrinth's so-called hardcore nature, and even more relevant in Hardcore itself, which has arguably been broken completely by this).

If I am wrong, please give me an example of any Diablo-like with traps representating any one of the above weaknesses (let alone all three).

These do not necessarily make the labyrinths more challenging (at least not in any meaningful sense) but do make them more annoying to many players, and more tedious to deal with. (Remember my earlier post, where I explained to you the difference between "tedious" and "difficult.")

"But in PoE people got used too much to standing still and offscreening whole packs without having to move or avoid things," you say, which sounds suspiciously like a response to Objection #5 (i.e., you are putting forth the exact straw man I am asking people not to put forth). I play as many melee characters as I do ranged characters. I am hardly unique among lab haters in that regard. Also, ironically, my ranged character gameplay hones my positioning ability far more than my melee character gameplay, probably because I don't do ridiculous amounts of damage (<15k dps on all my characters).

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morbo wrote:

2.) There's a ton of non-optional stuff you have to do in PoE. The Lab is a part of your char progression. Not all expansions need to be the same optional thing. Master aren't optional either, you have to level them each new league.

Masters aren't optional? What? There is nothing provided by the Masters that cannot be foregone without gimping your character in relation to other players' characters, unlike the labyrinth. Strongboxes, Vaal areas, Atziri, even Prophecies: Your ability to build your character is not locked behind any of this content.

On the other hand, to use your own words: "The Lab is a part of your char progression."

Furthermore, since you bring up Masters specifically, allow me to remind you that the Masters' missions all hinge around already-established PoE gameplay conventions, with perhaps the exception of aspects of the Haku missions. (And you may have noticed that Haku missions are widely considered crap. This is not a coincidence. The problems are analogous with those of the lab; they are just not nearly as serious.)

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morbo wrote:

3.) The Lab is a specific area with specific rewards. The game is full of specific maps with specific boss fights / rewards (div. cards etc), that players don't neccessarily enjoy, but run because of rewards. The Lab is not out of place in this regard.

I challenge you to find an area of the game whose rewards are anywhere near as "back-loaded" as those in the labyrinth.

All of the best Labyrinth-specific rewards come at the very end of the run. This phenomenon is doubly noticeable when mistakes/deaths require the player to re-run the Labyrinth again from the very beginning.

Furthermore, because this particular reward structure incentivizes getting through the content as fast as possible, many players don't feel rewarded WHILE playing the Labyrinth. And slower, careful players feel even less rewarded. This is what sets it apart from every other controversial change or addition GGG has added to Path of Exile. (With perhaps the exception of Haku missions. :P)

Many lab runners freely admit that they hate the lab while running it, and that they only run the lab because of the rewards. Greater rewards per se do not make content more fun, any more than a higher salary makes a shitty job more fun. Greater rewards only make people more willing to play unfun content, and more people willing to do shitty jobs.

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morbo wrote:

4.) This community has always been divided on many core design aspects of PoE, with many heated debates going on. GGG's job is to deliver a game according to their vision / business plan, no to be the UN messiah of world peace and harmony.

Never before have I seen so many threads or posts announcing a player's departure due to an unpopular addition to the game. Have you?

Never before have I seen opposition to a particular change have this much staying power. Have you?

The depth of dislike for GGG taking the game in this direction is unprecented. If I am wrong, by all means, point to any other addition to the game that has garnered this much hatred. All the infighting and flaming in lab-related threads? A direct result of that depth of dislike.

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morbo wrote:

5.) The Lab is the first content in PoE that is not entirely of static difficulty and cannot be facerolled with your eyes closed. Some players have problems with this, ye, I'd say most of the complainers fit into this category. But if they cant put the effort into overcoming the obstacle, they can still pay for a Lab carry.

Yeah, I just put this in as something to point to when people pop in with this particular straw-man argument. Some lab fans like to characterize lab opposers as being unskilled in order to discredit their statements. These characterizations generally find their source in intellectually dishonest sophistry, willful ignorance, or a genuine lack of understanding. You will find examples of all three in this very thread. But I always prefer to assume the best of people, so I will assume you fall into the third category.

Speaking of which:

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morbo wrote:

I'd say most of the complainers fit into this category.

Then you haven't been paying attention, have you. At least not in this thread.


...And that's probably all I have to say on this specific subject. It should be more than enough to help you understand. Thank you for trying to understand other viewpoints.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

These do not necessarily make the labyrinths more challenging (at least not in any meaningful sense) but do make them more annoying ...

From the gameplay pov traps don't require anything different from the player than "regular" content. Jump over, avoid, pop flask, refill flasks... Well maybe waiting for a sec or two in a safe spot. The only real difference is that traps can't be disposed off, preferably from a distance.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Masters aren't optional? What? There is nothing provided by the Masters that cannot be foregone without gimping your character in relation to other players'

Masters are not optional. If they are, so are ascendancy points. There is nothing provided by the Lab that cannot be foregone without gimping your character in relation to other players

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I challenge you to find an area of the game whose rewards are anywhere near as "back-loaded" as those in the labyrinth.

Not sure what "back-loaded" means, but if it means "given after completion", then Atziri. And it's also false. Lab has rewards during the run too, not only at the end.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

This phenomenon is doubly noticeable when mistakes/deaths require the player to re-run the Labyrinth again from the very beginning.

Some players actually like this. It privides a thrilling experience. Esp. Uber lab is not trivial at all. If you become too comfortable zapping around, it can kill you very fast.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

The depth of dislike for GGG taking the game in this direction is unprecented.

GGG have the real numbers. And they will prob. act upon them. If your estimates are true in 2.4 you wont have to deal with the oh so annyoing traps. Hopefully you.. "complainers".. won't totally ruin the lab for those who like it otherwise.

The Lab offers many rewards and allows for many playstyles, from rushing to exploing. It has great rewards and can be deadly if you want to risk it, or not, if you take you time. Except for Uber, it's not RNG gated. It's perfectly balanced, imo. Still it can be overleveled / overgeared and mostly facerolled like the rest of the game.

Too many people try it once or twice, don't like it because it's not 100% trivial, needs some knowledge / learning, and then complain how "it sucks" and "should be removed". The playerbase got lazy.

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morbo wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

These do not necessarily make the labyrinths more challenging (at least not in any meaningful sense) but do make them more annoying ...

From the gameplay pov traps don't require anything different from the player than "regular" content. Jump over, avoid, pop flask, refill flasks... Well maybe waiting for a sec or two in a safe spot. The only real difference is that traps can't be disposed off, preferably from a distance.

...

Too many people try it once or twice, don't like it because it's not 100% trivial, needs some knowledge / learning, and then complain how "it sucks" and "should be removed". The playerbase got lazy.

You seem to ignore (again) the fact is that the gameplay is different between the labyrinth and the rest of PoE. This could be the fundamental defining factor between people that hate the labyrinth and people like you that seems to have zero clue as to why the labyrinth is so horrible to some people, gameplay. If the labyrinth gameplay seems the same to you as the rest of PoE then you need to understand (or not because the truth is like gibbousmoon, I don't care to convince you of anything but like gibbousmoon I'll assume that you really do want to understand) that to many people, gameplay is the core fundamental aspect that defines a game as good or bad. If someone likes it then they like the game. If someone dislikes it then they won't like the game. The gameplay in the labyrinth is horrible, while the gameplay in the rest of PoE is why we play the game. This may be an opinion but that opinion is a solid undeniable fact. Since what we're talking about is our opinion of liking or disliking a game you have to accept that if you really want to understand.

Regarding your last two sentences, you're wrong if you try to put me in that category and I seriously doubt that a very high percentage of people disliking the labyrinth dislike it for that reason. The reason is because of the horrible gameplay.

@morbo

You've successfully ignored most of the content of my post. Or you're just not capable of understanding it. I'll assume the latter, and wish you well.

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morbo wrote:

Too many people try it once or twice, don't like it because it's not 100% trivial, needs some knowledge / learning, and then complain how "it sucks" and "should be removed". The playerbase got lazy.

You're DEFINITELY not paying attention. Any attention. Like, at all. Not even the post immediately above your own.

That, or you're trolling.

But, again, I'll assume the more favorable of the two. Start paying attention if you want to understand the opposite point of view.

Because if you don't understand the opposite point of view (and it's obvious you don't), you won't be able to make any coherent arguments against the suggestions made in this thread (and the proof is in the pudding, because so far you haven't made any at all). Sorry if I sound harsh, but I have little patience for those that appear uninterested in meeting me halfway in a discussion.

Good luck, and have fun.