SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"

Nicholas_Steel wrote:

So let me get this straight, people are angry because:

1) They hate the Labyrinth and don't really articulate why they hate it.
2) People don't like the Ascendancy Points being tied to completing the Labyrinth, but don't propose an alternative way of earning the points
3) People want the Labyrinth to be redesigned to be like every other zone in the game or to offer the choice of being exactly like any other zone in the entire game: Randomly chosen monsters in random locations with big open areas. This is okay, however I find that if everything in the game is the same (Like everything was before the labyrinth got added) it gets boring pretty fast once you hit maps and level to 80.

I really enjoy the labyrinth content, I just beat the Normal version of it and it was great and the rewards felt awesome.

1. You could say I'm one of those who "hate" the labyrinth. I (and many others) clearly stated why they actually hate it (examples: Gating of AC points, playstyle of lab is Arcade- and not ARPG-style)

2. I quoted my own suggestion I made 2 pages before. So you can see that there ARE suggestions (and if you had read the first post, you would see other suggestions as well)

3. You can create new game experiences without removing the most important features of PoE. The leagues are a pretty good example. Especially the first leagues felt unique and challanging, they were refreshing BUT they didn't change how PoE is meant to be played. Ascendancy on the other side, adds a completely "new" game inside of PoE. An Arcade-Rogue-Like plattformer. Tastes are different and not everyone likes Arcade games or Rogue-Likes and giving this content the really important Ascendancy points is a punch in the face for many who just want to play PoE.
Furthermore: No one minds that they added the labyrinth. Quite the opposite: Additional content is never really bad. The problem is, that it doesn't seem optional because of the Ascendancy points. If players could get the points through finishing an alternative challange and keep the treasures and craft-station in the lab, no one would complain about the lab

After some sleep I realize I was starting to get a bit facetious in my posts in this and the other topic, so, sorry about that.

"

dickhole_mcghee wrote:

oops srry accidental post

here's some comic relief, something to debate if lab arguments are temporarily too much, from a few months back

Still very much on the side of AC staying where it is. Absolutely over arguing with the kiddies about it so I'll just cite the fact that GGG again agrees with our side of this nonsense (Prophecy changed nothing!) and leave it at that.

PS:
Is it just me or are the traps longer/worse since Prophecy? Maybe bitching this much wasn't the correct course of action.

PPS:
The dog on the right seems more serious somehow. Great question.

"

Nicholas_Steel wrote:

"

GeorgAnatoly wrote:

This way people who want more than 2 points still have to run normal lab and cruel etc but people who want just the bare bones 2 for w/e minimal build defining thing can get it without the headache of the lab and it won't require any huge changes to the current system.

You're diminishing the neccessity of the labyrinth by 33.33%, that's not a small value.

You realize that he basically did that with normal? Normal is so easy now most people here could do it naked.

The issue is wasting time for your final build on something boring which we all will do. Yes I did merciless on day 3 or 4 and it wasn't all that hard. That's not the point I was pissed off the whole time because I was not having fun playing Frogger-lite not POE with my valuable fun time.

Now I have the boring new trials to do, well I did one and hated it too. Yea!!!

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

^ tl;dr: Watch out for the "vibe" guys. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO It's gonna get ya.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah your OP is shit and your ideas are shit.

Thanks for the bump.

Don't forget about lore! That idea will never work because the lore wouldn't agree with it. You know lore is totally made up stuff that could be easily changed for the cost of some new text and maybe some new voice recordings. Also don't forget that our opinion doesn't count because of some arbitrary rules that some internet troll has spewed.

Yeah because there totally isn't cost involved with getting additional voice recordings or with adding more lore into the game. On top of adding whatever the hell you all want as a solution to the "problem" the cost of the expansion increases exponentially with all the "additional" changes you feel is necessary, while also pissing off the playerbase that does enjoy the lab too.


To answer the dog question, its obvious that the 2nd picture is the only correct one.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Yeah because there totally isn't cost involved with getting additional voice recordings or with adding more lore into the game. On top of adding whatever the hell you all want as a solution to the "problem" the cost of the expansion increases exponentially with all the "additional" changes you feel is necessary, while also pissing off the playerbase that does enjoy the lab too.

On the other side, it would make many people happy. And happy people are more likely to purchase supporter packs or microtransaction items. The thing is: GGG should investigate how many people really don't like the prophecy content and if it's a majority of the people or a huge number (lets say at least 30%+), then it would make sense to put some effort in reworking the content, since it's a pretty big part of the game now. It's not just some side quest map with some uniques you can only get there, we are talking about new crafting methods and (more importantly) AC points. Especially the latter should be accessable in a more classic way (and not arcade as it is now). It's like the devs want the player to play a completely different game and put some important content behind that.

Also, hypothetical speaking: Lets not forget that future balance patches will also take the AC points into consideration. So some skills may be "balanced" cause they have to strong interaction with the AC points. And those who don't get the AC points would be clearly at an disadvantage here. I'm just saying that this possibility exists and would be unfair for those, who can't manage the labyrinth.

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Yeah because there totally isn't cost involved with getting additional voice recordings or with adding more lore into the game. On top of adding whatever the hell you all want as a solution to the "problem" the cost of the expansion increases exponentially with all the "additional" changes you feel is necessary, while also pissing off the playerbase that does enjoy the lab too.

On the other side, it would make many people happy. And happy people are more likely to purchase supporter packs or microtransaction items. The thing is: GGG should investigate how many people really don't like the prophecy content and if it's a majority of the people or a huge number (lets say at least 30%+), then it would make sense to put some effort in reworking the content, since it's a pretty big part of the game now. It's not just some side quest map with some uniques you can only get there, we are talking about new crafting methods and (more importantly) AC points. Especially the latter should be accessable in a more classic way (and not arcade as it is now). It's like the devs want the player to play a completely different game and put some important content behind that.

Also, hypothetical speaking: Lets not forget that future balance patches will also take the AC points into consideration. So some skills may be "balanced" cause they have to strong interaction with the AC points. And those who don't get the AC points would be clearly at an disadvantage here. I'm just saying that this possibility exists and would be unfair for those, who can't manage the labyrinth.

The lab was designed to be different on so many levels though. While also fitting (despite the snarky remarks people will make) that traps and ground affects are nothing new in ARPG games, with the later being quite common even before ascendancy.


Happy people = more money isn't always true, your might make a population of players happier by making changes to the lab to basically have 2 different versions and bringing it up to pair in terms of lore and such, but the time invested into that or the change can affect players that experience no issue or don't care enough to have it changed as GGG wasting time doing something they don't feel is necessary. Time that could be spent on act 5, new league content, new maps, ect. Its a balance for sure, just staying the "obvious" that you don't just do stuff to make players happy, theres always a cause\effect.

Claiming its arcade is a bit crazy IMO. You aren't really jumping (unless your leap slam) and you don't have to use any positioning abilities at all you can move your character basically pretty slowly thru the traps at key timings in order to complete the challenge.


Current balance really considers most characters at least by mid level maps will have ascended, if any points are not considered now its the last 2, which is great for some builds but do very little for others. If you can't complete the lab, then you need to do something differently, like massively differently the lab in normal and cruel is very easy and in merciless is easy enough if you have dps and\or surviveability. If your build can't do the lab, for whatever reason, you could just "get carried" but I'd be interested to know a non support build that couldn't do the lab.

My noob shit friend (I'm allowed to call him this I think) doesn't have a lot of playtime or experience under his belt and without any assistance from me completed all 3 of the regular labs, I might help him in the endgame map lab, but thats because the boss fight can be very punishing. If he can do it, then anyone that can invest a fraction of time can learn to as well.

The lab is the best thing that happened to this game since act 4 release, I like having a little something to do on the side that give me a different experience from the rest of the game. I Wish the GGG will come up with more ideas like that to give us different Path to choose for our exiles....

"

diablofdb wrote:

The lab is the best thing that happened to this game since act 4 release, I like having a little something to do on the side that give me a different experience from the rest of the game. I Wish the GGG will come up with more ideas like that to give us different Path to choose for our exiles....

Glad to hear that some people indeed like the content. The question i want you to answer though : Would it bother you if Ascendancy points were also rewarded elsewhere ? Would it change the fact tha you enjoy the labyrinth if they were even completely removed from the labyrinth? Wouldnt you still have fun doing the content you just praised?

There is no right or wrong answer there is a selfish one and a selfless one. Cause from all the rebutalls and evidence and facts and everything else presented till now, there is absolutely no downside to many of the suggestioned mentioned in the opening post.

I also want the labyrinth to stay in the game, and i also encourage GGG to make new and more experimental content. What i dont want in any case is this kind of experimental content to gate so many important tools to our character customization. Just like the jewel system that was an enhancement to the basic tree, the same or something similar (like giving an alternative) sould apply to Ascendancy Points too.

"

Regulator wrote:

"

diablofdb wrote:

The lab is the best thing that happened to this game since act 4 release, I like having a little something to do on the side that give me a different experience from the rest of the game. I Wish the GGG will come up with more ideas like that to give us different Path to choose for our exiles....

Glad to hear that some people indeed like the content. The question i want you to answer though : Would it bother you if Ascendancy points were also rewarded elsewhere ? Would it change the fact tha you enjoy the labyrinth if they were even completely removed from the labyrinth? Wouldnt you still have fun doing the content you just praised?

There is no right or wrong answer there is a selfish one and a selfless one. Cause from all the rebutalls and evidence and facts and everything else presented till now, there is absolutely no downside to many of the suggestioned mentioned in the opening post.

I also want the labyrinth to stay in the game, and i also encourage GGG to make new and more experimental content. What i dont want in any case is this kind of experimental content to gate so many important tools to our character customization. Just like the jewel system that was an enhancement to the basic tree, the same or something similar (like giving an alternative) sould apply to Ascendancy Points too.

Everything in the game doesn't need alternative methods. Your talking about selfish or selfless ones, but from my point of view anyone requesting a change to allow AC points outside the lab is selfish, so it depends on which side of the argument you are on, either we "be selfless and support the cause" or we are selfish. What a shitty statement to make, basically "guilting" people into feeling bad that you dont enjoy the content and want shit handed too you on a fucking platter.


I told you this before, but you either have me ignored (quite funny if you do) or you refuse to acknowledge the point that if AC was rewarded outside of the lab then the normal, cruel and merciless lab (with merciless being somewhat affected) are basically a completely pointless piece of content in the game. GGG would be better off if AC point were offered outside the lab, to just remove them from the lab altogether and get ride of normal and cruel lab, seeing as there is basically no reward to doing those if really any of the alternatives mentioned in your post were to be implemented, which is EXACTLY why I think your continuation of supporting ideas that have AC anywhere BUT exclusively to the lab is an utter failure to recognize the issue from the other person's point of view and only have your "selfish" desires show.

Not only that Chris stated and acknowledge the fact that AC in the lab receives the least hate from people that like the lab, while offering you a slower way to complete the challenge, but apparently focusing on 1500 ideas instead of the one that is most likely to get changed is a better use of your time and everyones time in this thread.

Still basically haven't addressed the endgame lab though in regards to the changes, because I can see a lot more conflict there.

"

Regulator wrote:

Glad to hear that some people indeed like the content. The question i want you to answer though : Would it bother you if Ascendancy points were also rewarded elsewhere? Would it change the fact tha you enjoy the labyrinth if they were even completely removed from the labyrinth? Wouldnt you still have fun doing the content you just praised?

It would bother me and even though I really enjoy running the laby there would be no purpose for me to ever enter it again should the points be moved out of it. Item enchantments aren't something I really care about so there would be no incentive for me to run the areas for it.

IMO the laby is one of the best additions to the game that has been released since I started playing (midway through SoTV), removing the points from it would negate it's reason for even existing. It serves a purpose, to ascend. Ascension isn't something that should be given away or gotten easily. As a bonus, it breaks the monotony of the leveling process by adding something completely different.

While you and your proponents may argue that this leads it away from the aRPG genre, in fact it doesn't do so in the least. The generally accepted definition of 'aRPG' includes aspects of action and adventure games, traps are very much a part of adventure games so their inclusion in a minor way is an accepted part of the genre.

Now, if the traps were all throughout wraeclast I'd fully back up your 'it's a different genre' argument but that simply isn't the case. You're looking at a minimum maximum of 3 hours (not including the end-game laby because it's not required) per character for something that is definitely worth the hassle whether you find it boring or not.

"

Regulator wrote:

There is no right or wrong answer there is a selfish one and a selfless one.

Wanting something changed because you and a subset of the player base finds it boring or painful seems very selfish to me. :)