Yet Another Map drop Rant

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Char1983 wrote:

I don't see them marketing it as "hardcore" any more today though, so either their design goals have moved on or they are not doing very good communication.

this is just speculation on my part, but Id guess that PoE is out for nearly 3 years and has a well-established core playerbase already. PoE has already has a name working for it. Kinda like Dark Souls (of course, less impact) after it was all marketed as a 'hard' game... people wont expect a game catering to casuals.

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The problem I have more is, though, that it isn't. I cannot find anything hard about clicking through dungeons for days on end while basically using two mouse buttons and that is it.

youre confusing hardcore and difficulty. a difficult arpg is an oxymoron (median xl is the only arguable one, but its a fan-made d2 mod 'for fun')

in an arpg, the context of 'hardcore' means playing 100s and thousands of hours (aka grinding) while still having motivation to do it (poe achieves it due to maps, atziri/uber runs, build customization, ladders/new leagues, and new content). PoE also added social element to the ladders part, with making quasi-competitive events with prizes and of course races, which is as close to competitive as arpgs will ever get.

I am not confusing "hardcore" with anything. I just have a different concept of "hardcore".

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Char1983 wrote:

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Frankenberry wrote:

I think what he is trying to say is you cannot recieve a +1 or +2 map drop in a tier 15 map, so you cannot sustain those maps at the very end of the map pool.

Can we please discuss on a basis of mutual respect? Thanks. Otherwise I will start ridiculing what you say as well, and that doesn't help to make a civilised discussion.

I wasn't ridiculing anyone. I was saying that what he (Edgewood) was saying was "you cannot recieve a +1 or +2 map drop in a tier 15 map, so you cannot sustain those maps at the very end of the map pool." Because he wrote "As you approach the right side of the bell curve it becomes very distorted as each tier you go up becomes more likely to drop a lower tier than a higher or equal one."

Nothing hostile in my comment :(

OK, then I misunderstood it, even though I don't think anyone wants to sustain T15s.

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Char1983 wrote:

I am not confusing "hardcore" with anything. I just have a different concept of "hardcore".

according to your concept then, zero arpgs in gaming history fall under 'hardcore' category. do you agree ?

if not, please name a commercial product ARPG that was 'hardcore' according to your concept.

If you can't (or if you agree on the first part), can we just agree that your definition of 'hardcore' doesn't apply to the genre at all?

I can't, because I have not played many ARPGs. I played Victor Vran recently though, the battles are much more engaging (and require a lot more skill). The game lacks other things.

That being said, no, we cannot agree that just because no one has made a good "hardcore" ARPG yet, that means that the genre in general is not hardcore. That would be like you would have said 10 years ago that telephones in general cannot interact with the internet in any useful way, just because the iPhone was not invented yet.

Also I have been told that this game used to be a lot more challenging.

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Char1983 wrote:

I can't, because I have not played many ARPGs. I played Victor Vran recently though, the battles are much more engaging (and require a lot more skill). The game lacks other things.

That being said, no, we cannot agree that just because no one has made a good "hardcore" ARPG yet, that means that the genre in general is not hardcore. That would be like you would have said 10 years ago that telephones in general cannot interact with the internet in any useful way, just because the iPhone was not invented yet.

Also I have been told that this game used to be a lot more challenging.

well, Ive been playing PC rpgs and arpgs since early 90s; having played nearly every PC RPG and ARPG worth a damn (with some small exceptions) I can tell you confidently there is no such thing as difficulty in ARPGs (ie, isometric loot-driven diabloids, because who knows - some people call the witcher an arpg).

your phone analogy is kinda off too, because I was accessing websites and posting on forums on my sanyo flip more than 10 years ago even when ipods werent a household name. sure, it wasnt comfortable, it wouldnt do scripts or css or any of the fancy stuff. but it existed, and it worked. technology is created way before consumer sees it. HD technology or DVD technologies were created/known in late 80s/early 90s, just not to general public

but hopefully you understand that you arrive at the genre you were never a part of, arrive late after several years, to a game that was not marketed to casuals (something that I was attracted to), and then you complain that the game is not catered to casuals ? do you see the problem here ?

do you come to other peoples houses as a guest and tell people in there how to live their lives and how their house should look like ? because thats how it feels to me. you want the game to be something else, not cater to its original audience, and employ something that was never, ever part of the genre.

thats like me coming to angry birds forum right now and saying hey guys diz game too casual, I want hookers and blackj...err, I want hardcore difficulty, character progression, full 3d, compelling story, etc...well I dont do that. I accept that AB was/is a game catered to casual audience. why cant you accept that PoE was not ?

oh and you wouldnt like some of HOW the game was 'harder' before.

in OB map drops were stingier than now and maps were smaller. think about it this way- if you can sustain t10s now, you wouldnt push past t5s (72s) back then, and would have to roll every map with chaoses. high tier maps were exalted (ie, people actually used multiple exalts on highest tier maps)

item drops were roughly 5-10 times worse than before. you needed more currency to get really good items, and you were priced out of that range if you didnt extensively grind. if you played SSF, you would have little chance of seeing a 77 shrine map without grinding probably 10 times you need to grind now. since you hate grind, Im sure youd hate that aspect.

less damage and AoE and less speed overall were given initially, and mobs initially hit a bit harder. that's where mechanically things were a bit harder.

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grepman wrote:

you want the game to be something else, not cater to its original audience, and employ something that was never, ever part of the genre.

actually PoE-NOW is not the same game as PoE-THEN.

i loved the races back then. i loved to watch ppl die to charging rhoas in mud flats because the thought they can play reckles.
now if you watch racers it feels more that your only skill needs to be to change gear while running.

also no arpg i played gated content behind rng.

and angry birds CAN be played competitive. at least to a certain level. try to get 5 stars in every level or max your points. isn't that the same concept like here?

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grepman wrote:

your phone analogy is kinda off too, because I was accessing websites and posting on forums on my sanyo flip more than 10 years ago even when ipods werent a household name.

Go to 20 years earlier then.

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grepman wrote:

but hopefully you understand that you arrive at the genre you were never a part of, arrive late after several years, to a game that was not marketed to casuals (something that I was attracted to), and then you complain that the game is not catered to casuals ? do you see the problem here ?

Quite honestly, no. Going by your analogy, we are both guests in GGGs "house", i.e. game. I am giving feedback, so are you. Why would your feedback be more valuable than mine? Cause you have been here longer? Cause you spent more money on the game? That second thing would at least financially make sense for GGG.

BTW I played both Diablo 1 and 2. Even played Diablo 1 before Hellfire was released.

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grepman wrote:

thats like me coming to angry birds forum right now and saying hey guys diz game too casual, I want hookers and blackj...err, I want hardcore difficulty, character progression, full 3d, compelling story, etc...well I dont do that. I accept that AB was/is a game catered to casual audience. why cant you accept that PoE was not ?

Because I firmly believe that GGG can cater to both more hardcore and more casual players alike, if they want to, and I have been trying to give feedback to them for quite a while now describing how that might be possible.

What I, on the other hand, cannot understand, is why people like you get so aggressive when I do. Unless, of course, you derive your fun out of either other people having no fun or being able to tell that you do at least 5 times the DPS they do.

Which, btw, is at the root of quite some of the balancing issues this game has. And makes it impossible to create challenging content.