State of Ignite vs Poison (mainly the Chance to Ignite gem)

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raics wrote:

- scaled by AoE bonuses unlike poison (an odd decision)
- can be proliferated

The AoE thing has been confirmed in-game to actually work, so although I read the same Q&A you did, it's wrong.

Also, Poison can be proliferated (without a damage penalty).

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PaperRat wrote:

Ignite, like other elemental ailments, doesn't really need 100% chance, since it doesn't stack. You need to ignite once per 4 seconds on tough enemies, and weaker mobs die to initial hit anyway. Ignite double dips on ele and fire damage, poison only double dips on chaos (which is harder to get), while you also scale initial hit with physical or fire/ele in case of conversion.

Considering resists, there is a fire pen, but no chaos pen, so if mob has some chaos resist it will apply to chaos portion of initial hit and then a second time to poison damage. Ele curses in most cases are also more multiplier for initial hit of ignite, same as vulnerability for poison.

Ignite is pretty strong right now, poison may be stronger, but I don't think that's a good reason to buff ignite.

Also this whole thread would probably do better in feedback and suggestions, no offense.

The base duration of ignite is 4 seconds. The burning damage over time is 20% of the initial hit of fire damage, per second. Therefore, over the base duration the target will take 80% of the damage dealt by the original hit.

The default base duration of poison is 2 seconds.
The base damage per second dealt by a given application of poison equals 10% of the combined physical and chaos damage dealt by the hit which applied that particular instance of poison.

So, yes ignite is still quite strong and can be scaled with burning dmg, that is what I did on my EA build, even higher tier map bosses just melt if you ignite them, but as for atziri it is utter garbage, had to modify gem setups and tree to be able to handle her.

And without heavy investment on the burning dmg / ignite gear it is just not the same for regular content.

As for poison, I did use the frenzy gloves on my la/frenzy duelist and it is indeed really powerful.
You need to hit 4 times to get the same result what the ignite does, but there is no gamble or/and heavy investment with this one, just a gloves and you are good to go with your free dmg bonus.
I guess it would be even stronger with a voltaxic build, but I wanted phys scaling.


Also, poison prolif = bino (+consuming dark if it is a caster) (+maybe abyssal cry), no shitty support gem with less modifier.

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PaperRat wrote:

Ignite, like other elemental ailments, doesn't really need 100% chance, since it doesn't stack. You need to ignite once per 4 seconds on tough enemies, and weaker mobs die to initial hit anyway. Ignite double dips on ele and fire damage, poison only double dips on chaos (which is harder to get), while you also scale initial hit with physical or fire/ele in case of conversion.

Considering resists, there is a fire pen, but no chaos pen, so if mob has some chaos resist it will apply to chaos portion of initial hit and then a second time to poison damage. Ele curses in most cases are also more multiplier for initial hit of ignite, same as vulnerability for poison.

Ignite is pretty strong right now, poison may be stronger, but I don't think that's a good reason to buff ignite.

Also this whole thread would probably do better in feedback and suggestions, no offense.

Thanks for your input, here is my response:

Try playing a fire discharge or flameblast char which is build around ignite without 100% chance to ignite and see how well you fare when you can't reliably ignite everyone hit without prolif =\
It's just a pain to discharge 6 endurance charges and not ignite your targets, or to build a 10 stack flameblast on a boss and it whifs because RNGesus decided to make fun of you.

While it is true that ignite is 80% of initial hit over 4 seconds, it doesn't stack, so poison comes ahead way way stronger.
Consider that with the 20/20 poison gem you are dealing 22% of your initial hit per second for 2.4 seconds making it 52.8% of initial hit over 2.4 seconds and that is without any other scaling.
It is more reliable (100% chance to proc) and easier to scale since it also scale with attack / cast speed unlike ignite and hyperscales with Wither totem + Increased duration.

Yes i want diverse mechanics, but when one is clearly in a much better state than the other there is no diversity.
Also afaik most monsters don't go above 35% chaos resist, so chaos wins there in the cases where it matters.

I am not saying buff ignite to the poison levels damage wise, just it makes no sense to me why poison is both stronger, scales harder and has more consistency, at least give ignite more consistency via items or the gem which is a joke compared to poison gem.

in short, if you put similar effort needed to make ignite work in poison, it gets insanely OP

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Mannoth wrote:

Try playing a fire discharge or flameblast char which is build around ignite without 100% chance to ignite and see how well you fare when you can't reliably ignite everyone hit without prolif =\
It's just a pain to discharge 6 endurance charges and not ignite your targets, or to build a 10 stack flameblast on a boss and it whifs because RNGesus decided to make fun of you.

While it is true that ignite is 80% of initial hit over 4 seconds, it doesn't stack, so poison comes ahead way way stronger.
Consider that with the 20/20 poison gem you are dealing 22% of your initial hit per second for 2.4 seconds making it 52.8% of initial hit over 2.4 seconds and that is without any other scaling.
It is more reliable (100% chance to proc) and easier to scale since it also scale with attack / cast speed unlike ignite and hyperscales with Wither totem + Increased duration.

Yes i want diverse mechanics, but when one is clearly in a much better state than the other there is no diversity.
Also afaik most monsters don't go above 35% chaos resist, so chaos wins there in the cases where it matters.

I am not saying buff ignite to the poison levels damage wise, just it makes no sense to me why poison is both stronger, scales harder and has more consistency, at least give ignite more consistency via items or the gem which is a joke compared to poison gem.

I actually played non-crit flamebast with ignite in Darkshrines. Accidentally 5-Linked a chest and decided to give chance to ignite a go. So my experience was exactly this: small and medium stuff dies from initial hit anyway, bosses and tough rares sometimes need a second hit to get ignited, then they mostly die, that's pretty much it. Merciless Kaom got somehow critted on the first 7 or 8 charge flameblast and burned down to 25% hp just from that. That all with selffound gear and pretty casual approach, mind you. Ignite is not weak, especially not flameblast ignite. There can be made an argument if flameblast even needs ignite, but it's neither here, nor there.

Now, what I don't get, is where poison comes into this? How are those two different gems related even. If poison is too strong, then the logical move is to nerf poison, not buff ignite. Besides, making gem a 100% affair will pretty much make useless all the ignite uniques, tree passives, jewels, ascendancy passives, flammability ailment effect and some stuff I'm probably forgetting. Funny thing is, it won't even make ignite that much stronger.

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PaperRat wrote:

Now, what I don't get, is where poison comes into this? How are those two different gems related even. If poison is too strong, then the logical move is to nerf poison, not buff ignite. Besides, making gem a 100% affair will pretty much make useless all the ignite uniques, tree passives, jewels, ascendancy passives, flammability ailment effect and some stuff I'm probably forgetting. Funny thing is, it won't even make ignite that much stronger.

Because it makes no sense that a stackable dot is more consistent than the not stackable one ._.

Poison has alternatives to applying it:
Bino
Consuming Dark
Poison gem
Viper Strike
Poisonbite gloves
Adder's Touch (dagger passive, basically free poison to phys crit dagger)

Out of those 7 ways to apply poison 4 of them are 100%, 1 is a proliferation and 2 are less reliable. And the gem variants (Viper and Poison) are insane compared to the chance to ignite.

Compare it to a non crit ignite build which needs the gem + several uniques to hit 100% or near it. Even in a high crit chance build you are looking at probably ~80% chance to ignite per hit if you do not use some uniques (and no, flamability isn't consistency because curse immunity and resistance is a thing).

The point i am making that in comparison to the poison gem the chance to ignite gem is a joke, for some reason poison is way easier to scale and is more consistent and non crit (and even some crit builds) ignite builds basically must waste a whole DPS slot for mediocre consistency while poison builds get both 100% consistency and a damage amplifier.

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Mannoth wrote:

Because it makes no sense that a stackable dot is more consistent than the not stackable one ._.

It makes perfect sense. Non-stackable dot doesn't need to be applied with every hit. It's a waste. Cause it, you know... doesn't stack.

And, like I said, your solution just makes a lot of already implemented stuff worthless, but doesn't make ignite that much stronger, nor it does anything to bring supposedly overpowered poison to a reasonable level.

All in all, it was a freaking chaos/poison patch, of course poison is going to be overtuned a bit.

Should be:

1. Ignite changed to do 30% of hit damage per second for 2 seconds (currently 20% for 4 seconds).

2. Poison status changed to do 5% of hit damage per second for 4 seconds (currently 10% for 2 seconds).

3. Poison support gem changed to give 0% increased Damage with Poison at gemlevel 1, 100% increase at gemlevel 21. No other changes.

4. Chance to Ignite changed to give a constant 50% chance to Ignite regardless of gemlevel (but +0.5% per 1 quality). Leveling gives increased Damage with Ignite (0% at gemlevel 1, 100% at gemlevel 21).

5. Increased Burning Damage renamed Fan the Flames, changed to grant x% more Damage against Burning Enemies (same values as Hypothermia).

6. Viper Strike now requires level 4 for gemlevel 1; Puncture now has no level requirement and is the Shadow's starting skill. (This is because Poison now does damage slower and doesn't feel good in Twilight Strand.)

7. Consuming Dark becomes a legacy item; new versions convert 50% of Fire Damage to Chaos. (This adds a cost to Bino's proliferation; it gives up the full conversion possible with 2x CD. Bino's regen also nerfed significantly by point #2 above - regen rate halved.)

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

5. Increased Burning Damage renamed Fan the Flames, changed to grant x% more Damage against Burning Enemies (same values as Hypothermia).

I don't really like copies in different element, besides, it would be exploitable with just a bit of fire damage on your gear. How about doing the inverse? Have a support that will give inflicted ignites the ability to accelerate with every hit the enemy takes while ignited, by something generous like 100% per hit, that would make ignite a possibility with rapid hitting skills, as they would expire very fast. And it would really be 'fanning the flames'.