State of Ignite vs Poison (mainly the Chance to Ignite gem)

I am not saying it should come with +150% burn/ignite damage, no, what I am asking for is +100% chance to ignite at gem level 20.

It really eludes me why the support gem from poison is better than the equivalent for ignite when poison does everything ignite does but better.

Comparison:

Poison:
- can be inflicted by 2 types of damage (phys and chaos), 3 if you count Consuming Dark (free chaos damage + 100% poison chance)
- 100% chance to poison via uniques (bino or the frenzy gloves), gems (viper strike) and support gem (Poison duh :P)
- stacks as fast as you can inflict it
- chaos resist isn't nearly as common as fire resist
- suplements crit and fast attack builds (aka the already strong builds)
- has a ton scaling options ( attack speed, damage, duration, Wither, abyssal cry )
- no monster is immune to poison

Ignite:
- can be inflicted by only 1 type of damage (fire)
- if you aren't going crit your overall chance to ignite per hit is abysmal without the gem
- lower scaling options (damage, duration), no wither alternative for fire exists
- can be stacked as poison with Emberwake, you reduce the damage from 80% over 4 seconds to 16% over 4 seconds with a cap of 300 stacks and you lose crit damage modifiers =\
- fire resist lower the initial hit, therefore the ignite also
- atziri is immune to it =\
- goes against the current "gotta go fast" playstyle, for a long time now
- a lot more inconsistent compared to poison

So pretty please, can we get the Chance to Ignite gem to at least 100% chance at level 20?
Especially when you want to play say a RT infernal blow avatar of fire build based around ignite, the gem is already mandatory in such a case but it really feels underwhelming.

I played some ignite builds in the past but currently any ignite build is better of with just grabbing a consuming dark dagger and scaling chaos instead =\

You are right.
+1 to this

Ignite:
- automatically inflicted by crits so there's less need for dedicated proc option
- enemy fire resistance can be reduced with curses
- scaled by AoE bonuses unlike poison (an odd decision)
- can be proliferated
And yes, it currently sucks, but then again, most dot effects suck compared to poison.

You know what would even the playing field a bit in regard to fire-chaos conversion? Giving Void Manipulation a meaningful penalty. You'd think they learned the lesson with Conc effect, but no, making the same mistake all over again with CD and VM.
So, 40% more chaos damage and 25% less elemental damage, it should suck for chaos conversion, just as controlled destruction should suck for crit.

@raics

It is a bit of a mute point regarding curses since poison has access to 2 scaling curses also (Vulnerability and Temporal chains) and most people don't go for more than 2 curses.
Proliferation has been dead for a while now, and you can poison the whole screen without much trouble with things like Reave / Bladefall / Chaos Firestorm / Chaos Blast Rain, etc.

Non crit chars are in such a bad state for ignite it isn't even funny mate, you have to lose a gem slot in order to have a decent ignite chance and even then you don't hit 100% =\

I just want consistency, there isn't a single thing giving 100% chance to ignite whereas we have several for poison (Gem, poisonbite gloves, consuming dark, viper strike and bino).
Just asking for a bit of love for a gem that is a straight out loss on DPS for consistency, and then it doesn't even as much consistency as it's counterpart gem which gives a huge boost to the damage over time also =\

Personally I love ignite builds. But I think they're in a decent spot right now - ignite is powerful and takes some investment to get it reliably. It's just that poison (or at least Bino's and Consuming Dark) is currently overtuned but the Ascendancy patch is said to change that.

There's also the new Ascendancy class Elementalist which will give you 100% reliable ignites for 4 seconds after kill (I wonder if that effect will be affected by increased skill duration nodes from the tree).

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raics wrote:

- scaled by AoE bonuses unlike poison (an odd decision)

To my knowledge poison was tested and does in fact scale with area damage bonuses the same way ignite does, Rory's post was misleading.

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Mannoth wrote:

I just want consistency, there isn't a single thing giving 100% chance to ignite whereas we have several for poison (Gem, poisonbite gloves, consuming dark, viper strike and bino).
Just asking for a bit of love for a gem that is a straight out loss on DPS for consistency, and then it doesn't even as much consistency as it's counterpart gem which gives a huge boost to the damage over time also =\

Fair enough, my point was that ignite has some things working in its favor and that poison is the broken one. I could probably dig up my pre-2.1 post where I'm absolutely certain Consuming dark poison builds have zero chance to enter the game in their utterly broken state and that something will be done to them before the release, shows what I know.

I've had a number of big disappointments in this patch, Consuming poison, Bino ED and Controlled Destruction are only some of them, sadly.

Fortunately, Rory gave some hints about reworking DoT scaling fairly soon. If the whole system is redone from the ground up and double dipping removed we may see burning damage nodes popular again and if crit receives the much needed tuneup chance to ignite might be good again. I'd personally be for removing statuses on crit entirely, it holds the game back in some ways.

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Zed_ wrote:

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raics wrote:

- scaled by AoE bonuses unlike poison (an odd decision)

To my knowledge poison was tested and does in fact scale with area damage bonuses the same way ignite does, Rory's post was misleading.

Thanks, 'scales with projectile damage but doesn't scale with AoE damage' was as clear as it goes so I haven't bothered to test it.

Thanks for the responses guys, anyways :

@Vipermagi

Vulnerability is still a more multiplier for physical spells with the poison gem tho (initial hit) :P
Temporal chains shines where it needs to shine and trash enemies die in seconds anyway so the fact Temp Chains gives a multiplicative bonus to your poison/wither combo rolled together with a defensive buff is imo the #1 curse for poison builds.

Sadly the fact curse immunity is a thing and unique bosses have a resistance to it + they often come with high enough fire resist means the elemental weakness / flamability might not do much at all compared to the fact most bosses roll with low chaos resist =\

@raics

I wish they would detach the elmental status from crits also and just give some %chance to freeze/shock/ignite nodes on the tree.
My disappointment was great when they removed even more of it from the shadow start :(

I do not understand the reasoning behind gating status ailments behind crit and giving only a whole of ~20% chance to ignite/freeze/shock on the tree, it just pushes people towards crit and doesn't give alternatives to non crit builds.

Ignite, like other elemental ailments, doesn't really need 100% chance, since it doesn't stack. You need to ignite once per 4 seconds on tough enemies, and weaker mobs die to initial hit anyway. Ignite double dips on ele and fire damage, poison only double dips on chaos (which is harder to get), while you also scale initial hit with physical or fire/ele in case of conversion.

Considering resists, there is a fire pen, but no chaos pen, so if mob has some chaos resist it will apply to chaos portion of initial hit and then a second time to poison damage. Ele curses in most cases are also more multiplier for initial hit of ignite, same as vulnerability for poison.

Ignite is pretty strong right now, poison may be stronger, but I don't think that's a good reason to buff ignite.

Also this whole thread would probably do better in feedback and suggestions, no offense.