Discharge should get the "Purity" Treatment.

"

raics wrote:

Aw shit, I thought it was a very good example :)

Actually, I still think it is, you will need to find a build by a good player that doesn't use multistrike or echo with a damage-oriented vaal skill to convince me otherwise. The 'pick 6 out of 10' is exactly why I'm complaining, what's the point in choice if you pick the same thing every time?

My example doesn't say any of those things you mention. I'm not even claiming every single target melee skill should have splash built in, because some people actually use a secondary skill for single target. Not everyone uses or can fit faster attacks or fortify and not every melee skill is linked to MPD or WED. However, every vaal Sparker uses echo, that's not good.

And multistrike was introduced to aid with targeting in melee, that's fairly obvious, also because we sometimes didn't have anything decent to fill slots with.

Basically every self cast spell caster uses spell echo it isn't limited to just this one vaal gem. Still if 10 options are available and you select 1 always 3 almost always and 1 is open for changeup thats still better then not having the options at all.

"

Mjolner already got this treatment, I think its time for CoC to have it as well. Even if CoC had a 20% chance to cast you could always scale it by stacking more attack speed, which is the exact same situation we have now.

And mjolner is a shit item now basically. In terms of scaling that is my point, why should you scale it with ever more attackspeed, why isn't the best option to scale it with spell damage, if its a very low chance to trigger then you have to have XX attackspeed before its even viable, so instead just give CoC less damage multiplier on it, so damage is less and it doesn't work off of "chance" Mjolner is a chance based item, it is and was always built around that, CoC wasn't introduced as such and a less drastic approach would just be a strait damage nerf.

"

I agree with you 100% here, but CoC needs a band-aid until the engine has a major rework. I would even support a buff to CoC damage per hit to go along with a reduced chance to cast on crit - because I know that change could go in the game tomorrow whereas we might wait years for a real graphical fix to CoC problems.

Naw let people that want to play CoC play with the graphical issues they present, its a terrible precedence to change something in name of balance one way just because "we need to do something" A terrible change is worst then a "bad" nerf.

.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Basically every self cast spell caster uses spell echo it isn't limited to just this one vaal gem. Still if 10 options are available and you select 1 always 3 almost always and 1 is open for changeup thats still better then not having the options at all.

Don't worry, I mentioned that too in one of my recent threads, it's the top generic dps support, you can't get that kind of dps boost for such a low mana cost anywhere else and the drawback doesn't really matter with the kind of cast speeds we can pull off. Power level of multistrike is spot-on but echo is honestly a bit overdone.

"

raics wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Basically every self cast spell caster uses spell echo it isn't limited to just this one vaal gem. Still if 10 options are available and you select 1 always 3 almost always and 1 is open for changeup thats still better then not having the options at all.

Don't worry, I mentioned that too in one of my recent threads, it's the top generic dps support, you can't get that kind of dps boost for such a low mana cost anywhere else and the drawback doesn't really matter with the kind of cast speeds we can pull off. Power level of multistrike is spot-on but echo is honestly a bit overdone.

Aside from incinerate last league and this chaos shit this league self cast spells weren't in a good spot since the removal of many things casters used in 2.0 or rather the readjustment :P

"

goetzjam wrote:

Aside from incinerate last league and this chaos shit this league self cast spells weren't in a good spot since the removal of many things casters used in 2.0 or rather the readjustment :P

Yeah, well, selfcasters are in a bad spot, melee is in a bad spot, traps are unpopular and mines unusable. We'll just pretend everything is fine because some of those things aren't all that hard to fix, if echo goes down a wee percentage, spell damage can go up a bit more to compensate and spell totem / trap multiplier can go a bit down, though not really sure it even should, native totems are significantly stronger than totemized spells and traps are still clunky.

I like to be unsure which support will work best, swap them around, you know play with it a bit until I strike gold, that's a big part of the fun.

^But we did that, and echo is gold.

:')

Sometimes we forget the hours and hours of learning we did to acquire the knowledge we take for granted now i think.

We can deduce simply from the tags on a gem and the mechanics attached to those tags how it will perform, i am pretty sure that's surreal for a lot of people.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

^But we did that, and echo is gold.

Hmm, and what happened to 'one man's junk is another man's gold' (meant in a purely asexual way, of course)? :)

I've seen people opt out of multistrike and do it myself whenever I got anything else decent to socket, but giving up on echo with a spell that benefits from it is extremely rare, the numbers are just too good to pass up even if you mind the drawback.

Pardon the derail, by the way, it got related to the topic only in the loosest possible sense.

^I have situations where i swap out echo, like boss fights that penalize the rooting it enables.

So in a sense it's not always mandatory and becomes detrimental in some instances.

Rarely though, but i really like my reaction time to be on point vs certain encounters.

Honestly i think echo became so popular not because of it's dps increase, but because of the fiasco that was mana sustain after EB's rework (or at least, perceived fiasco which is more accurate).

For a lot of people putting in echo and then getting a little bit of mana focus in their passive tree fixed the issue. And that's usually why i use it myself, not for the dps but for the sustain benefit.
(arguably sustain = dps)

I reckon if they increased the mana multiplier to where it mimicked the cost of a double slower cast in the shorter time-frame, people would drop it like a stone :D

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

Honestly i think echo became so popular not because of it's dps increase, but because of the fiasco that was mana sustain after EB's rework (or at least, perceived fiasco which is more accurate).

Yup, it gives a truckload of bang for the buck, 153% dps at only 119% mana multiplier is super cheap. Conc gives you 159% at 140% mana with a clear speed drawback and it's limited to AoE (though we can't call it a narrow gem as it isn't a spell-only support). Assuming you already got, say, 100% inc cast speed, faster casting will net you only 119% more dps at a whooping 143% effective mana multiplier, that thing is worth the slot pretty much only on totems.

The worst thing is we actually didn't need echo at all, I suppose we just begged for it since it got datamined until we got it. There were and are still reasons for multistrike but it was never exactly such a big problem to balance selfcasting and indirect spell usage.

serious question, does anyone have links to a coc build that is unusually powerful that doesnt involve discharge? Its not a trick question I already know the answer to, honest inquiry, because I know shatterchuck was insane, and I played barrage coc too and my damage was huge with a life version. I could 1 shot something like crema boss with a barrage if I was at point blank, now that it doesnt shotgun, even with spell boosts it feels like it does maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of the damage it did before. Its like taking a 100k dps character and reducing it to 30k dps, that big of a nerf. Personally Ive not seen any coc builds outside of discharge since that really do anything self cast builds, bow builds, trapper builds etc arnt doing all day. But they could be out there, i dont really keep up on all thats going on with coc.


When it comes to discharge, Im not really the person to comment on how exactly powerful it is, I dont play it, I avoid it and have done for a long time. From watching videos and streams the coc cyclone version does seem to be a bit insane, esp now with vortex to collect tons of charges.