Discharge should get the "Purity" Treatment.

"

Derpey wrote:

Discharge requires a lot a work to even work in the "OP" way you people seem whine about.
First of, we need a bloody Vagan Dagger or get enough Accuracy (which limits our survival due to nodes,) next up we need a bloody 5L, else it'll feel so goddamn bad.
We need bloody Elreon Jewelry which aren't cheap either, they require serious crafting and time investment. If you have any idea how annoyed I've been over that I can only buy ONE single METAMOD item from Masters every day, it's really hard to even obtain the right base of item and they're sickly expensive if you buy from others.

Fair enough, I don't really mind the power level in itself, it's very strong but also very expensive, all well and good. What I mind is CoC preventing it from becoming a powerful selfcast skill, you know, dodge around, build charges, position yourself well... BOOM, all clear.

And no, I won't accept echo as a 'fix', if one more skill is 'fixed' by multistrike or echo I'll probably burst a vessel.

"

raics wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Thats just silly to disable both echo and multi on vaal skills, it completely removes the purpose of using damaging vaal skills when you remove those abilities. We need less artificial limitations, not more. We already have spells that can't use spell echo.

Ah, right, I forgot, that's also what the ancient Vaal skill manual says:
"For Your pleasure our leading scientists thaumaturgists developed a brand new line of personal defense skills. As you enter a bloodthirsty rampage in defending your home from intruders these little marvels of cutting edge gem technology will gather souls of slain opponents to unleash awesome punishment* upon those still standing."

* Be advised that the awesome punishment may somewhat lack in potency if you do not use a copy of Spell Echo or Multistrike that came bundled with our product.

_____________

I don't want the skills dumpstered, I want them strong and worthwhile to use but I don't want mandatory supports that make it so. Each of those is a double damage multiplier, just double their damage and problem solved. Ok, maybe not double because they gain a slot, let's say 70% more.

Mandatory support gems is such a generic bullshit argument though. The skill gems in this game have mandatory support gems regardless of vaal or not. Following your logic we should just remove all of the mandatory support gems and just build them into the skills themselves, I mean what is socket or link cost when you can just implement it into the skill gem.

You haven't said at all any reason other then "mandatory" for why you would remove them, without that or those reasons your argument falls flat.

It also fall flat because purity change was needed because too many people were having +max res and it provided for the mana cost "too much" by splitting the gem up into others it allowed for higher single res at a much higher cost. This also helped builds like RF.

Splitting up discharge is just a damage nerf for no other reason them to discourage the meta CoC shit which should be 100% nerfed in other ways not a splitting of a gem thats been in the game forever.

"

I agree the skill is stupid as hell right now, but that's CoC, not Discharge. IMO TRIGGER-GEMS should of never been made (I was a HUGE opponnent of the adding of CWDT).

Right its CoC, discharge shouldn't be nerfed because self cast discharge shouldn't be affected at all. Trigger gems were introduced incorrectly I think, however CWDT is an example of something that is good idea, but was exploited to the furthest stretch, personally I like the gem as it automates things that don't need to be manually done, stuff that is boring to manually do as well.

"

This game has always had coefficients - see curse on hit pre-1.3, or Surgeon's flask now. Reduced damage per cast would have the same effect on damage output as reduced chance to cast, but the latter option helps solve graphical issues with CoC too.

But the game hasn't had coefficients on damage sources, just because in 1 case, which was removed and in another case, which was an adjustment (nerf) to a flask mod, when there will be far more flask mods to roll in the future doesn't mean that coefficients are the way to go.


Coefficients from damage standpoint will mean that something will reach a point of no more "improvement", not that its limited by traditional PoE methods, no more links, quality, ect.

In terms of performance issues, balancing a skill to behave a specific way because of performance is NEVER the right option, that alone should throw up read flags. Make the spells do less damage per hit and address the graphical issues separately.

Game balance and performance choices should NEVER intersect.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Mandatory support gems is such a generic bullshit argument though. The skill gems in this game have mandatory support gems regardless of vaal or not. Following your logic we should just remove all of the mandatory support gems and just build them into the skills themselves, I mean what is socket or link cost when you can just implement it into the skill gem.

Exactly, that's how the industry works. If every car buyer wants the optional cup holder you will include it in the price and list it as a feature, it saves time and money.

In this case it's a pointless waste of a gem slot. It's a damage skill, you will fill all linked slots one way or another. On something like vaal grace it can't be done with inc duration because the gem needs to take up more slots.

"

raics wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Mandatory support gems is such a generic bullshit argument though. The skill gems in this game have mandatory support gems regardless of vaal or not. Following your logic we should just remove all of the mandatory support gems and just build them into the skills themselves, I mean what is socket or link cost when you can just implement it into the skill gem.

Exactly, that's how the industry works. If every car buyer wants the optional cup holder you will include it in the price and list it as a feature, it saves time and money.

Except for your comparing real life, which is a very different beast to a game designed around limiting your options so you must pick.

If you must use industry, its like giving people the option to do 6 things to their car out of 10:

cup holders
cd player
cassette player
power windows
heated seats
backup camera
side mirror defrosters
Automatic seat belts
side air bags
cruise control
USB for audio playback
subwoofer

(you get the point)


Again following your example fortify would be built into melee gems, faster attacks would be included in all of the attack gems, ect ect. Yet on some builds I don't use fortify in my main links or use faster attacks either. If I want to hit as hard as possible there are better DPS gems then fortify, plus I can trigger it with leap slam or whirling blades instead of sacrificing one of my 5 supports. Now on the other hand when I played cyclone (when it was good) I didn't want to stop spinning so I did sacrifice the DPS of cyclone a bit to gain fortify. You see this way I have more options available to me and its behaving the way the game was designed, because links in this game are suppose to be something you work towards, otherwise 6 link would be a lot more accessible (although its more accessible then the past)

You have an issue with the fundamental design of the linking system in PoE, I have no idea why its been here since the start.

In terms of making multistrike or echo mandatory to "fix" gems I don't think it fixes anything now, it definitely helped self cast casters in a time where they couldn't compete with totems or CoC. But multistrike has never fixed anything.

"

In this case it's a pointless waste of a gem slot. It's a damage skill, you will fill all linked slots one way or another. On something like vaal grace it can't be done with inc duration because the gem needs to take up more slots.

So all cold spells should have hypothermia and icebite built in because you can easily use 5 other support gems for those spells, or what if all spells had penetration built in or were the quality bonuses. Lets just make it so you don't need to have options and way choices, lets make it so if your using any ability the correct set of support gems is already defined for you by removing all the other options that might make your build more unique.

I understand in this circumstance your talking about vaal gems, specifically 2 that use multi and echo what seems like always, the whole point is those gems are using up support gem slots that others would be replaced with, just overall buffing things they nerfed. What about stuff like pledge of hands, abit people claim its too strong now, if I wanted to use a vaal gem and have something in my chest 6 linked and a vaal setup in my staff 6 linked (really is 7 link) then I'm just SOL because it won't work for no other reason then "you always use those gems"

For any spell which can be supported by Trap, Spell Totem or CoCS, Spell Echo is not a mandatory support gem. At least, not any more "mandatory" than CoCS is, or than Spell Totem is. You're still using skills in different ways; it might be mandatory to a build, but not mandatory to the skill itself.

Now, I imagine GGG could have avoided creating Spell Echo, if it then went and nerfed Trap, Spell Totem, CoCS, and CWDT, while buffing the damage of every Spell. They just decided to go the Spell Echo route instead.

And at this point, it's too late to change that.

But I digress. Buff self-cast Discharge. Nerf triggered Discharge. Preferably via suggestions which GGG could actually implement.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Except for your comparing real life, which is a very different beast to a game designed around limiting your options so you must pick.

If you must use industry, its like giving people the option to do 6 things to their car out of 10:

cup holders
cd player
cassette player
power windows
heated seats
backup camera
side mirror defrosters
Automatic seat belts
side air bags
cruise control
USB for audio playback
subwoofer

(you get the point)


Again following your example fortify would be built into melee gems, faster attacks would be included in all of the attack gems, ect ect. Yet on some builds I don't use fortify in my main links or use faster attacks either. If I want to hit as hard as possible there are better DPS gems then fortify, plus I can trigger it with leap slam or whirling blades instead of sacrificing one of my 5 supports. Now on the other hand when I played cyclone (when it was good) I didn't want to stop spinning so I did sacrifice the DPS of cyclone a bit to gain fortify. You see this way I have more options available to me and its behaving the way the game was designed, because links in this game are suppose to be something you work towards, otherwise 6 link would be a lot more accessible (although its more accessible then the past)

You have an issue with the fundamental design of the linking system in PoE, I have no idea why its been here since the start.

In terms of making multistrike or echo mandatory to "fix" gems I don't think it fixes anything now, it definitely helped self cast casters in a time where they couldn't compete with totems or CoC. But multistrike has never fixed anything.

Aw shit, I thought it was a very good example :)

Actually, I still think it is, you will need to find a build by a good player that doesn't use multistrike or echo with a damage-oriented vaal skill to convince me otherwise. The 'pick 6 out of 10' is exactly why I'm complaining, what's the point in choice if you pick the same thing every time?

My example doesn't say any of those things you mention. I'm not even claiming every single target melee skill should have splash built in, because some people actually use a secondary skill for single target. Not everyone uses or can fit faster attacks or fortify and not every melee skill is linked to MPD or WED. However, every vaal Sparker uses echo, that's not good.

And multistrike was introduced to aid with targeting in melee, that's fairly obvious, also because we sometimes didn't have anything decent to fill slots with.

When it comes to Vaal skills, I should figure out if Multiple Traps works or not. If it does, there's your alternative. If it doesn't... well, it should.

Discharge is fine; there's nothing game breaking about its power level in either mjolner or CoC builds, and both require significant investment to become GG.

All it needs are graphical optimizations.

.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

When it comes to Vaal skills, I should figure out if Multiple Traps works or not. If it does, there's your alternative. If it doesn't... well, it should.

It does not.

Spell echo repeats the spell cast and the first cast consumes the vaal souls which is then repeated by echo.

Multi trap requires souls for each trap entity placed.(which is impossible except for vaal light trap i think since that has 3 charges you can build up)

Peace,

-Boem-