Difference between melee and range builds.

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goetzjam wrote:

5k HP isn't a lot, 7-8k kinda is, only few builds get higher then that. 1 shot in PoE is "part" of the game design if PoE was more attrition based I do believe melee would have a better shot at being equally viable as other playstyles, but it isn't and that means the same 1 shot mechanics are a higher risk for those that get closer or can't as easily dodge.

I don't see why that should necessarily be the case. You can design around huge damage spikes. Consider some hypothetical notables/keystones like:

- You can never lose more than 50% of your Maximum Life from one Hit (you still take at least 1 damage, to prevent immortal CI builds)
- Whenever a Hit would kill you, there is an X% chance that you lose 50% of your current Life instead, where X is your current Life / Maximum Life (again, you take at least 1 damage)
- You cannot be killed while you have Fortify. If a Hit would kill you while Fortified, you lose Fortify and cannot regain it for X seconds.

I didn't give these too much thought, but you get the idea. Any of the above would protect you from a single large hit one-shotting you, but can't be abused to withstand continuously huge damage. And they'd give melee the security that if things go south, they at least have a chance to get the hell out of there or leech back the HP lost.

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suszterpatt wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

5k HP isn't a lot, 7-8k kinda is, only few builds get higher then that. 1 shot in PoE is "part" of the game design if PoE was more attrition based I do believe melee would have a better shot at being equally viable as other playstyles, but it isn't and that means the same 1 shot mechanics are a higher risk for those that get closer or can't as easily dodge.

I don't see why that should necessarily be the case. You can design around huge damage spikes. Consider some hypothetical notables/keystones like:

- You can never lose more than 50% of your Maximum Life from one Hit (you still take at least 1 damage, to prevent immortal CI builds)
- Whenever a Hit would kill you, there is an X% chance that you lose 50% of your current Life instead, where X is your current Life / Maximum Life (again, you take at least 1 damage)
- You cannot be killed while you have Fortify. If a Hit would kill you while Fortified, you lose Fortify and cannot regain it for X seconds.

I didn't give these too much thought, but you get the idea. Any of the above would protect you from a single large hit one-shotting you, but can't be abused to withstand continuously huge damage. And they'd give melee the security that if things go south, they at least have a chance to get the hell out of there or leech back the HP lost.

Those are overly complicated solutions that only further encourage exploitation of other playstyles then just melee.

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Neither. Ranged needs less AoE.

Not going to probably happen, best we've seen is something like split arrow nerfed. But if you are suggesting that melee aoe should be or always be greater then ranged thats not likely going to happen, too many factors in place for that to happen. Look at the new skill like earthquake, if it has that significant of an AoE is it really even melee at that point? Part of the issue with this discussion is people can't agree on ANY of the aspects of it, except maybe melee should be better.

I guess to add to it, besides the damage vs suriviability argument

There is movement skills, what is "real" melee and what is, what about short ranged abilities that play similar to melee (freeze pulse or similar, granted proj speed can help with that) the fact of the matter is melee vs ranged and balance isn't a simple answer despite what some more ignorant people would suggest in this thread.


Still despite this long discussion this isn't even the most important issue for GGG to work on and honestly isn't that big of a deal.

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goetzjam wrote:

Still despite this long discussion this isn't even the most important issue for GGG to work on and honestly isn't that big of a deal.

Skill design is more important than itemization design or trade improvements. Your priorities are all messed up.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Still despite this long discussion this isn't even the most important issue for GGG to work on and honestly isn't that big of a deal.

Skill design is more important than itemization design or trade improvements. Your priorities are all messed up.

Yet I didn't specify what I think the most important issue is.....you just assume



Melee is very much playable now, especially if you aren't trying to compare your e-peen to everyone else. You can get enough damage, enough surviability and gear it easy enough to play endgame content, probably much more then 1\2 the people in this thread have even experienced, which ultimately is why discussions like this fail. Not enough experienced people on the topic to truly discuss in-depth what the issues are. Newer players or less experienced players can help via perspective, but we can't have a discussion about melee balance and be comparing are builds to everything else in the game, if we can't even agree that melee as a whole in this game needs to include pretty much anything with a melee tag. If we can't agree on that GGG's options to balance "melee" is extremely limited, likely down to a skill gem because thats the only other way GGG can "balance" melee.

No just nerfing the fuck out of everything else isn't an option, despite what you want to play other people also enjoy other gameplay options, keep in mind this is a game, its designed or should be designed so people can have fun. This is coming from someone that almost exclusively plays melee in D3 and would be playing cyclone had its single target not been utterly destroyed.

But yeah I'm not going to tell you what the most important issue is, unless you ask nicely.

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goetzjam wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Still despite this long discussion this isn't even the most important issue for GGG to work on and honestly isn't that big of a deal.

Skill design is more important than itemization design or trade improvements. Your priorities are all messed up.

Yet I didn't specify what I think the most important issue is.....you just assume

I am not saying making short-ranged skills balanced with long-ranged is the single most important issue, either. Not that that's what I was responding too.

But it is probably top five. And it is a big deal.

Oh, and it's not about comparing your e-peen to someone else's, it's about comparing it to what yours could have been or can be, with equal effort. It's not about jealousy, it's about being optimal.

I usualy die vs hard hiting bosses because my leech over time cant keep up with the constant hits by the boss, let me explain what i mean.

Lets say you fight tunneltrap he hits you and you loose like a forth of your hp now you have good leech but by the time the leech heals you over time you get hit again and you keep geting lower and lower until eventualy the hit can kill you, unlike ranged builds that get hit then because they dont get hit all the time they can just heal back with no problems.

So my question is why isint vaal pack on mara side of the tree? Instant heal would allow you to keep up with the boss dmg making melee much more reliable, someone mentioned to me on one post that it dosent fit with mara side because it has regen nodes but isint that the whole point of this game you choose if you are gona focus on life leech taking vaal pack or focus on regen.

Just my opinon on how a major problem could be fixed and also this would work great with the new berserker class skill Cloaked in Savagery.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

But it is probably top five. And it is a big deal.

Oh, and it's not about comparing your e-peen to someone else's, it's about comparing it to what yours could have been or can be, with equal effort. It's not about jealousy, it's about being optimal.

Optimal, efficient, ect are all just bullshit words used to describe the jealousy or envy that people have when comparing their builds which are fully possible of completing the same content of the game as others. This is the largest reason why this conversion is bullshit because it really just boils to the line of thinking players have rather then actual issues.

Goetz, anything can beat the content, assuming an arbitrarily large amount of time. With decent gear, uncommon skill, and a few hours you could Basic Attack Merciless Malachai to death. But people do not have infinite time. Beating content isn't even a fucking metric. Beating it within a certain timeframe from character (league) start, is. So are XP/hour and loot/hour. With every metric of build performance, the common denominator is time.

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goetzjam wrote:

So after reading this thread and some more post in it again.


Does melee need more damage

or

Does melee need more survivability



Because the consensus on here isn't at all the same, part of the reason why I think is because some people view melee as some sort of sword and board tanky character that should be immortal and some view melee as a risk\reward style character that should "hit the hardest" but takes a while to get going.

Thoughts?

its survavibility imo, and its not even close to me.

damage is just fine solo, it can be buffed for groups or whatevs but in general, it's fine imo.

the best thing for melee is to somehow make it tanky and then make enemies spongier, while taking away all that offscreen bullshit from ranged classes. which also means slow the game down a lot from its current pace (which Id welcome but I doubt its happening)

to be fair, thats a lot of work, and I have no real solution that would work seamlessly here. fortify was a half measure that was just not a good decision, as anyone without a bow or wand is using it.

^Nope, scrotie is correct on this one.

Melee is fine "as is", the balance issue or perceived notion of issue comes from "non-melee" comparisons.

Like he says, AOE is out of control and melee has nothing to compete on that front, it simply loses out on all relevant factors when you enter that part of the game.

Optimized gameplay vs time that is.

Reign in ranged and actually increase the dangerous situations for them(to which they are naturally less prepared) and melee is suddenly "buffed" in the grand scheme of things.

Peace,

-Boem-